Who gets Makoto?

[MrWhat]

You seem to lead a ridiculously difficult life.  I have to admit I feel bad because you're such a great guy for this community.

Oh, don't mind me.  I just like to worry.

The latest thing was, I've had to start showing other people at work how to do my job, so that it will be easier to take my job away from me.  That's always bad for morale.  But I've since learned that my contract will probably be extended through next June 30.  So, things are better again, maybe.

Huh.  I like to think I have character and determination, and I'm generating some angst points too.  Maybe I "deserve" Makoto.  That was a joke.

Good job with the Japanese, though.  If someone could read any of this great unknown stuff, you'd definitely be my hero... if that means anything.

Thanks.  It's been so difficult for me to write fanfic lately that I may give up for awhile, and put the time into trying to translate some EH stuff.  I'm not really fluent enough for translation work yet, but AFAIK no one else better qualified is doing it, and that's as good for practice as anything.

If I could hang onto this job for just another few years, and if I can keep up this pace of self-study, I'd seriously consider changing careers.  I don't know if there's much demand for Japanese translation work by native-English speakers, or how well it pays, but maybe that kind of job would be less likely to be lost to India  

[MrWhat]

It's reaaadyyy MUHAAHAHAHAHA...!

Thanks, Rob.

Probably "Too Much Information" again-- but I actually got into Afura's self-service in the library    Some of the expressions on her face?  And her body language?  They're just... wow.  And her uniform must be really skin-tight.

I've always wanted to draw a much-less-explicit fanart of Nanami bathing in money.  Something like Scrooge McDuck swimming in his vault, maybe.

I LOLed when Deva turned up in a school uniform, and Alielle's eyes turned into hearts.  Too bad Deva went creepy on the very next page.  No wonder Jinnai screamed in Alt World ep 13.

Strange that OVA-Ifurita got the cover, but she had only a cameo in the last story.  Y'know, if I had a demon god that could harmlessly blast away clothing, like Ifurita did with Afura?  I'd say, nuts to nuking cities.  I'd just have her strip everyone.  Besides the sheer entertainment value, people should be easier to conquer when they're nekkid.

[MrWhat]

[...] "Makoto-chan"... written in the actual kanji instead of hiragana, which is what most doujinshi seems to do for some reason. I've never understood that... a readability issue, maybe? Mr. What, little help? :-/

I'm sure you know this, but most kanji have "name" readings (nanori) in addition to their on-yomi and kun-yomi.  That's how people are named in Japanese.  And I'm sure others here (Saucer?) know more about this than I do, but the Japanese put a lot of thought into naming their children.  I think they even count the strokes in the kanji for luck, or something.

It also depends on the name.  Foreign names are written in katakana.  And I do see Japanese names written in kana-- I'm pretty sure that I've seen Nanami's name in both kanji and kana.  Maybe Nanami's name uses a "harder" kanji.  Some of the less literate doujinshi "spell out" almost everything in kana.

[MrWhat]

Okay, here's what I could make out from the story titles in the "ELO-Hazard" table of contents.  Not bad for an amateur, I think-- I only got stumped once.  (Rob, if you'd prefer to continue this in, or move this to, a separate topic-- you're the boss.)

5.  toshima no sekai eruhazaado
    a~ ai shi no fujisawa ? hen

5.  El-Hazard: The World Of The Middle-Aged Woman
    Ah, the loving's Fujisawa ? compilation/book/part-of-book

Sorry, I couldn't find a compound of those last two kanji.

15.  kijin no sekai eruhazaado
    choukyoushi VS zenigamejo

15.  El-Hazard: The World Of Eccentric People
    Super-Teacher VS Money-Turtle? Girl

zeni (coins/money) + kame (turtle) = zenigame (pond turtle).  But that must be an idiom, or a pun, or something, given Nanami's obsession with money.

24.  mono ai no sekai eruhazaado - Fe.

24.  El-Hazard: The World Of Object Love - Fe. [Female?]

31.  seifuku no sekai eruhazaado
    jinnai katsuhiko no kojinteki na yabou

31.  El-Hazard: The World Of Uniforms
    Katsuhiko Jinnai's personal aspiration

39.  akumu no sekai eruhazaado

39.  El-Hazard: The World Of Nightmares

49.  bousou no sekai eruhazaado
    jinnai no kedarui gogo

49.  El-Hazard: The World Of Delusions
    Jinnai's languid afternoon

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

Probably "Too Much Information" again-- but I actually got into Afura's self-service in the library    Some of the expressions on her face?  And her body language?  They're just... wow.  And her uniform must be really skin-tight.

It's okay.  I think with the sheer amount we have so far there's something for everyone at this point.    But yes... "skin tight".  The OAV definitely seemed to accent her butt.  

Strange that OVA-Ifurita got the cover, but she had only a cameo in the last story.  Y'know, if I had a demon god that could harmlessly blast away clothing, like Ifurita did with Afura?  I'd say, nuts to nuking cities.  I'd just have her strip everyone.  Besides the sheer entertainment value, people should be easier to conquer when they're nekkid.

I had a similar thought myself.  

39.  El-Hazard: The World Of Nightmares

49.  El-Hazard: The World Of Delusions
    Jinnai's languid afternoon

Those two seem pretty accurate, eh?

[Saucer]

It's interesting, though, that the VAST majority of female anime love interests seem to be tomboyish, or violent, or extremely powerful, or loudmouthed, or any combination of the above - just about as far from yasashi as it's possible to get. While it is certainly true that most of these ladies "settle down" once they catch their man (or, if they're looking to the future they intend to share with him often envision themselves as demure, domestic housewife types), it's still worth noting as an aspect of Japanese culture. Tenchi Muyo's Ryoko is one example of this - she combines ALL of the above traits, and yet dreams of a future where she and Tenchi can settle down in a nice, traditional Japanese household, where she can wait on him hand and foot like a good Japanese wife.

There's something very alluring about a woman who's violent and flips out constantly. Don't ask me to explain it. Some of my friends think I'm weird and hate chara like Narusegawa from Love Hina and Akane from Ranma 1/2 for the very same reasons I love them. "Peau-san, please wear these heels and walk all over me!" -Tommy/Hyper Police

So, what does this mean? That Japanese men desire strength and independence in their prospective mates, but expect them to set all that aside and become proper, obedient housewives once they're married? Perhaps they desire the strength that a strong mother can pass on to their children, but they don't desire the hassle of putting up with a strong wife? That, perhaps, is a cynical way of looking at things. But is there a better explanation?

Yes. Remember, Japan is the country where women are more oppressed than in the west. Yet, at the same time, they have more control over the household. Anime is a reflection of real life Japan. Often in anime, tomboys are told they better settle down or they'll never snag a man. Even though women in Japan now have an easier time continuing their careers, there's still the social stigma that you work a few years, get married and retire so you can have a baby. The yasashi personality is considered to be the Yamato Nadesico (true Japanese woman) which is the most desirable. Maybe it really is a husbands desire not to have an overbearing and controlling wife? Or, maybe it's just too foreign a concept for westerners to understand? It's interesting to compare this side by side with the violent chiXx0r and lolita complexes that are so prevelant in anime and Japanese society.

I agree Saucer.  There is one thing in my mind though.  
Exactly how human is Ifurita?  She's definitely capable of falling in love, but what about other capabilities like making love with Makoto or becoming pregnant?

It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. What with Naomi Armitage (Armitage III) and May (Hand Maid May) supposedly being able to bear children. And then there's the infamous sex-a-roid's of Bubblegum Crisis and Ghost in the Shell (manga).

[Saucer]

I say she's not really a cyborg at all.

Maybe a genetically engineered lifeform based off of the human genome and fused with nanomechanical engineering to produce a 100% human being with a mechanically engineered  genetic substructure via the nanotechnology implemented on a subgenetic level, allowing her to do things beyond the capability of any natural life form, as well as survive extreme enviromental inhibitions (eg death, sickness, injury). An advanced cerebral capacity capable of on demand interaction with her unatural substructure, allowing her to not only learn but adapt knowledge for her own physical benefit. A heavily suprior conciousness with an unlimited capacity for knowledge., marred only by a mental deprecation preventing self-learning of specific things to prevent disobedience. Able to feel emotion, but created without knowledge of it, or of free will.

Anyone else concur?  

That's a very good point Raven. I've thought about the nanotech thing myself often. It certainly would make alot of things about Ifurita "scietifically plausible." Then again, maybe alot of things about Ifurita are simply gimmick? Anime is as much about imagination and the impossible as it is about realism. I mean, Ifurita winds up like a toy. That's awesome! Heh heh ^_^ Artificial people in anime are certainly given alot more liberty than they are in western literature, but I'd say there's no denying that Ifurita is more orgasnic than anything else.

I'm sure you know this, but most kanji have "name" readings (nanori) in addition to their on-yomi and kun-yomi.  That's how people are named in Japanese.  And I'm sure others here (Saucer?) know more about this than I do, but the Japanese put a lot of thought into naming their children.  I think they even count the strokes in the kanji for luck, or something.

The meaning of names also hold alot more importance, as the Japanese often use words that are still in common, rather than archaic usage. A very good example of this is Makoto, which means "truth." Two other very common Japanese names that are also every day words are; Aoi, which means "blue" and Hikaru, which means "light." Those are two that come to my mind at the moment, although there are literally hundreds of other examples.

[Spanner]

I, for one, tend to believe that Ifurita is 100% robot, with artificial skin and whatnot. I like to think that the technology that composes her is similar to a lot of the other bits of ancient El-Hazard technology we see here and there - a combination of simple mechanics combined with elements that our limited science cannot even begin to grasp.

As for whether she can have sex... Well, her purpose is to be a weapon of mass destruction. That's a given. It's how she considers herself, and it's what was indicated by just about all of the memories we witnessed. Whatever ancient warlord commissioned her construction wanted something that could kick ass on an enormous scale. However, that same eccentric warlord apparently wanted his weapon of mass destruction to look like a beautiful woman. And so, it was made so.

Now, the question is, WHY did he want his superweapon to look like a beautiful woman? It could be simple aesthetics. He may have liked to surround himself with beautiful things, and wished for his prized weapon to be beautiful as well. However, it is also possible that he delighted in the thought that he could send his weapon out to dominate other nations, and then take her to his bed and dominate her himself. It must be quite a rush to have a being of such awesome power submit herself to you utterly, at your every whim, right?

So, if Ifurita WAS given the ability and organs to have sex, it probably meant that she was used in a very degrading manner when she wasn't out killing and slaughtering. Not a happy thought. Just another reason why Ifurita hated her very existence, I guess. On the bright side, she might be thankful for it now, if it gives her the ability to more greatly please Makoto.

As for whether she could become pregnant and give birth, I highly doubt it. Whether Ifurita is a robot, a cyborg, or an engineered humanoid, she's still a weapon. A pregnant weapon is not generally a useful one, after all. The ancients of El-Hazard very likely would not have relied on such a crude and haphazard method of creating new Demon Gods. Ifurita is most likely sterile.

Of course, now that Ifurita has free will, perhaps her formidable abilities might be able to grant her such a thing. Might her abilities for copying techniques manage to find a way for she and Makoto to conceive a baby together? The limits of Ifurita's powers were never clearly defined. Who knows WHAT she could do, if she were to put her mind to it?

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

Ah.  Nicely put, Spanner.  I like this description best of all I've heard, actually.  It applies enough logic to make sense out of everything.  (I always bet metal and artificial skin myself, simply because that's a lot easier to maintain than flesh, which would require circulating blood/etc.)

Of course, now that Ifurita has free will, perhaps her formidable abilities might be able to grant her such a thing. Might her abilities for copying techniques manage to find a way for she and Makoto to conceive a baby together? The limits of Ifurita's powers were never clearly defined. Who knows WHAT she could do, if she were to put her mind to it?

Yeah, that's food for thought alright.  I do suppose it would depend how she can reconfigure for random abilities whether or not it'd be possible.  Ah well.  Worst comes to worst, you can always adopt and make some other being happy.  That's gotta at least be satisfying.  

[MrWhat]

A very good example of this is Makoto, which means "truth."

Deva's very first line, in the first OVA, just before she meets Jinnai, is nani?  makoto ka?  (What?  Is that true?)  Seeing as how she hadn't heard of Makoto yet, that was very confusing for me, until I looked up makoto.

[MrWhat]

I always liked the term "bio-mechanical construct" myself.  But how much of Ifurita is mechanical?  I don't know.  I try not to work out back-story until I need it, if you know what I mean.

From memory, we've never seen her without her headband-thingy, or the choker around her neck-- they might actually be built "into" her.

Her power-key socket would have to be mounted against her pelvic bones, I think.  Or her entire skeletal structure may have been redesigned, for various reasons.

I assumed in The Charm that, if an OVA demon god lost a limb, it could regrow it with a full charge and a lot of human food.  But that could still allow for a semi-metallic skeletal structure, and weird synthetic polycarbon flesh, and such.

From memory, Makoto did mention her "spring" running down in OVA1 ep7.  But he may have been using a metaphor there.  Or the spring could be surprisingly compact, and tightly integrated into her key-staff socket-- or the key-staff itself.

That's one of my pet theories-- that a demon-god's key-staff is her "battery."  What got me started on that is, Ifurita's key-staff is called a zenmai in Japanese.  But the textbook definition of zenmai is "mainspring."  To me, that implies that her power is stored in her key-staff.  It also makes sense to store the power in the shooty part, because that function should require the most power.

That would make Ifurita's journey to Earth even more dramatic.  She faced certain death by leaving her key-staff-battery behind with Makoto, and using up all her residual energy to send him to EH.

Anyway... I do think Ifurita has some significant pseudo-organic composition.  And there is some circumstantial evidence for this.  Off the top of my head:

In OVA1 ep1 and ep7, Ifurita cries.  This implies that her eyes use water, if nothing else.

In OVA2, when Makoto finds Yuba's Ifurita after her fall, he says, "She feels stone cold!"  Even if she were significantly different from Makoto's Ifurita, note that Makoto says that as if he expects her to be warm.  Assuming that Makoto hasn't encountered any other demon gods between OVA1 and OVA2, that implies that Makoto's Ifurita has body warmth.  Ifurita could be a machine that generates heat... but she wouldn't be an ultimate weapon if she were a machine so poorly designed that she built up much heat at all.

I did write out some further Ifurita guesswork way back in What's It Like.  To summarize:  Can Ifurita have sex?  Yes, but [spoiler].  Can Ifurita have children?  No.

Well, I used up another evening to go off on another tangent.  OVA-Ifurita fan-boy that I am, I still say Nanami Was There First  

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

In OVA1 ep1 and ep7, Ifurita cries.  This implies that her eyes use water, if nothing else.

Eh.  If you can make her sexual, I'm sure you can make her cry.  

*reads "What's It Like"*

Hum.  Well, that story suggest an alternative way to get into the activity.

[Saucer]

I, for one, tend to believe that Ifurita is 100% robot, with artificial skin and whatnot. I like to think that the technology that composes her is similar to a lot of the other bits of ancient El-Hazard technology we see here and there - a combination of simple mechanics combined with elements that our limited science cannot even begin to grasp.

As for whether she can have sex... Well, her purpose is to be a weapon of mass destruction. That's a given. It's how she considers herself, and it's what was indicated by just about all of the memories we witnessed. Whatever ancient warlord commissioned her construction wanted something that could kick ass on an enormous scale. However, that same eccentric warlord apparently wanted his weapon of mass destruction to look like a beautiful woman. And so, it was made so.

Now, the question is, WHY did he want his superweapon to look like a beautiful woman? It could be simple aesthetics. He may have liked to surround himself with beautiful things, and wished for his prized weapon to be beautiful as well. However, it is also possible that he delighted in the thought that he could send his weapon out to dominate other nations, and then take her to his bed and dominate her himself. It must be quite a rush to have a being of such awesome power submit herself to you utterly, at your every whim, right?

So, if Ifurita WAS given the ability and organs to have sex, it probably meant that she was used in a very degrading manner when she wasn't out killing and slaughtering. Not a happy thought. Just another reason why Ifurita hated her very existence, I guess. On the bright side, she might be thankful for it now, if it gives her the ability to more greatly please Makoto.

As for whether she could become pregnant and give birth, I highly doubt it. Whether Ifurita is a robot, a cyborg, or an engineered humanoid, she's still a weapon. A pregnant weapon is not generally a useful one, after all. The ancients of El-Hazard very likely would not have relied on such a crude and haphazard method of creating new Demon Gods. Ifurita is most likely sterile.

Of course, now that Ifurita has free will, perhaps her formidable abilities might be able to grant her such a thing. Might her abilities for copying techniques manage to find a way for she and Makoto to conceive a baby together? The limits of Ifurita's powers were never clearly defined. Who knows WHAT she could do, if she were to put her mind to it?

If Ifurita were indeed "100% robot," then for what reason would she both possess emotions (albeit suppressed ones) and anatomical correctness? The very fact that she has freewill and needs to have it supressed for the purpose of being a killing machine implies that she was created for more than simply fighting. Nobody, no matter how mad they are, would go to the trouble of creating such a life-like replica of humanity and then reverse-engineer her into a weapon. I'd say, it's fairly obvious that Ifurita is some advanced form of life. Possibly an even older race than the ancients of El Hazard, whose technology carried perhaps them so far that they became bio-mechanical lifeforms to project their longevity. Or, Ifurita could have been a powerful cyborg created for the purposes of rule and/or protection, such as Shion; the Cyborg Empress of Johji Manabe's Caravan Kidd. Ancient people's of El-Hazard could have found her "entombed" (more likely, in stasis) just as Makoto did and placed the "obedience circuit" (more likely some sort of sub-routine) in her. Most likely after the fact. If Ifurita was indeed as benevolent and opposed to mass destruction as she seemed (as you can tell by how much she tried to resist the control of the obedience circuit), it's likely that she could be have been naive enough to be led down this path by people seeking the ultimate weapon to usurp their rivals.

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

You needn't overcomplicate it too much, Saucer.  There's many possibilities of how she could still be a manufactured design and yet rewired.  I mean, we can assume El-Hazard of  the past was a space-age society.  And I very much mean space-age; the Eye of God is basically like a giant space-warp drive of sci-fi fame.

Like many animes, Ifurita was probably originally designed to spec as any of the generic too-good-to-ever-be-true humanoid robots.  What's missing is the link that makes her into a weapon requiring a conscience override.  This story could be almost anything.  It could be as simple as the manga's "Oops, we made her too perfect, now we need to jump backward and screw with her head" or something else more sinister.  Something tells me she was not designed to do what she eventually was found to be doing, but someone had gone mad enough to rewire her.  Perhaps "he" is the leader of the rebellion on Ifurita's home turf who needed all the brain power and sophistication of their best 'bots but required her to work without thinking about the results.  (More or less you can see this in TV Ifurita; "he" probably suffered the same type of resistance from Ifurita.)

[Saucer]

You needn't overcomplicate it too much, Saucer.  There's many possibilities of how she could still be a manufactured design and yet rewired.  I mean, we can assume El-Hazard of  the past was a space-age society.  And I very much mean space-age; the Eye of God is basically like a giant space-warp drive of sci-fi fame.

That's pretty much been the point of the last two pages of this thread, hasn't it?

Like many animes, Ifurita was probably originally designed to spec as any of the generic too-good-to-ever-be-true humanoid robots.  What's missing is the link that makes her into a weapon requiring a conscience override.  This story could be almost anything.  It could be as simple as the manga's "Oops, we made her too perfect, now we need to jump backward and screw with her head" or something else more sinister.  Something tells me she was not designed to do what she eventually was found to be doing, but someone had gone mad enough to rewire her.  Perhaps "he" is the leader of the rebellion on Ifurita's home turf who needed all the brain power and sophistication of their best 'bots but required her to work without thinking about the results.  (More or less you can see this in TV Ifurita; "he" probably suffered the same type of resistance from Ifurita.)

Isn't that basically what I just got through saying?