El-Hazard Online
General => El-Hazard Online => Topic started by: Saucer on June 06, 2004, 10:54:57 pm
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The recent ressurection of the "magnificent love-triangle world" thread inspired this thought in me. I am reminded of a short story by Larry Niven, in which a time traveler strays into an alternate timeline where humans evolved from wolves, rather than apes. Humanoid apes exist, but they're very primitive and need to be cared for by the wolf-humans. The traveler is accepted by the wolf-people, but as he spends more time in a timeline where he doesn't belong, he starts becoming stupid and turning into one of the primitive apes. He rushes to his time machine and hurries home. But as he departs, the daughter of the Lord he was staying with jumps into the machine with him. She's fallen in love with him and wants to go with him. The problem is, when they return to his timeline, she turns into a dog!
So it causes me to wonder, what will happen to our friend's from Shinonome after they've spent excessive amounts of time on El Hazard, a dimension where they shouldn't theoretically exist? How does the physiology of the people of El Hazard differ from earthlings? Do they live longer? And if they stay there long enough, will they become like the people of El Hazard eventually? Does Makoto's ability to operate the ancient El Hazard technology increase over time, to the point where he can travel to Earth like in the end of the OVA? And what of Ifurita on Earth? If she stays there long enough, will she become human?
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So it causes me to wonder, what will happen to our friend's from Shinonome after they've spent excessive amounts of time on El Hazard, a dimension where they shouldn't theoretically exist? How does the physiology of the people of El Hazard differ from earthlings? Do they live longer? And if they stay there long enough, will they become like the people of El Hazard eventually? Does Makoto's ability to operate the ancient El Hazard technology increase over time, to the point where he can travel to Earth like in the end of the OVA? And what of Ifurita on Earth? If she stays there long enough, will she become human?
Just to throw a wrench in the mix, it all depends on how you define the reality they're in. I mean, I could easily turn El-Hazard into a mere time travel story, not necessarily dimension story. I see it quite concievable that Earth could blow itself up and the remaining survivors move away from technology to deliberately try to not repeat the past. ;P
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I think it would be concievable that EL Hazardians are fairly imune to disease , inherited or contracted (or otherwise ??? )
Given how technologically advanced their ancestors society was before its destruction, it is concievable that they ancients had genetically engineered their own species to create a literally perfect being. Genetic engineering to eliminate mental illness, inherited genetic disorders and diseases, as well as degenerative illnesses over time, such as from old age.
While this would not mean that EL Hazardians would live forever (I'm sure the ancients realized the impracticality of this) It does mean that they would have lived a life without so much as catching a cold, let alone cancer-equavelent diseases.
Ergo, their decendents probably have had these benefits and enhancements passed to them through the ages. Its even concievable that nanotechnology is present to aid in self-regeneration from injuries.
Or, the healers of El Hazard may have special enhancements to aid in the healing of regular El-Hazardians through means artificial or genetic.
Of course this is all speculation ^_^
^_^V
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what will happen to our friends from Shinonome after they've spent excessive amounts of time on El Hazard, a dimension where they shouldn't theoretically exist? [...] Do they live longer?
Aaron Bergman had something like this in his "World of Endings Promised." The journey across dimensions granted the Wanderers immortality as well as their abilities... until something went wrong.
it all depends on how you define the reality they're in.
My take is that Earth, El-Hazard and Creteria are the same planet in three alternate/what-if dimensions. All three worlds have humans, and although many species are different, they all have basically-compatible animal and plant life.
It does mean that they would have lived a life without so much as catching a cold, let alone cancer-equavelent diseases.
Only a (cough) complete weirdo would write a semi-realistic story with a El-Hazard native who contracts terminal cancer. (BTW, I just wrote about 1000 words of Hana Ni Arashi. First real progress on that darn thing in ten months. Woo hoo!)
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...blink...
Huh. I just always considered it to be a situation like the Earth 1/Earth 2 scenario in DC Comics, that these worlds sit side-by-side at different vibratory rates.
You go with what sounds right, I guess. :)
JSM
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Weirdo? o.O
Not that've I've ever thought of the idea, though I wouldn't think it odd.
A different approach, but not weird.
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Weirdo? o.O
Not that've I've ever thought of the idea, though I wouldn't think it odd.
A different approach, but not weird.
Mr. What was just being self-effacing - since he himself has written exactly such a story: Hana Ni Arashi. ;)
And if he's back in gear on THAT, I guess I'd better start stocking up on my antidepressants. ;D
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Mr. What was just being self-effacing - since he himself has written exactly such a story: Hana Ni Arashi. ;)
Sorry 'bout that. I was too busy trying to be clever to make sure that wouldn't get read wrong.
And if he's back in gear on THAT, I guess I'd better start stocking up on my antidepressants. ;D
I had an extra twenty minutes, earlier this evening, and I added maybe another 200 words. That's me, filling the bathtub with an eyedropper.
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*nods nods* I should have caught that one ^^;
btw, The fanfic is great so far. Darker than even I imagined going in, but definately worth the read ^_^V
Keep it going!
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Didn't Makoto say something along the lines of "I feel that El-Hazard is where we really belong." somewhere in Alternative World? So maybe they were just "meant" to be there and no ill effects would come to them.
Of course, I still don't know why none of the Wanderers seemed to miss home at all and never had any thoughts of going back.
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Hello,
I've had some thoughts on this subject...
One, owing to director Hiroki Hayashi's inspiration for El-Hazard from Edgar Rice Burroughs' "Mars" series, perhaps El-Hazard is actually Mars only a long, long time in the past? Of course, there are very big holes in this theory...in fact the only way to make it fly is to put the caveat in that El-Hazard *cannot* be in an alternate universe/dimension, which I think most will agree it is. After all, it's the easiest explanation. ;)
Two, as for the physiology angle, I suspect perhaps that as Makoto and his pals gain powers by travelling to El-Hazard, perhaps if an inhabitant from El-Hazard were to ever travel to Earth they would thus *lose* whatever inate powers they had had on El-Hazard. In other words, the trip back and forth working both ways. Of course, how this would effect a being such as Infurita is open to debate. This could be the case, especially as the OVA makes staying in El-Hazard permanently a very, very tempting possiblity for our brave travellers. After all, what the hell's the point in going back to Earth permanently besides for a short visit here and there? :)
Sorry if this has already been kicked around here before, just things I've been thinking on and off since first watching the OVAs about six months ago.
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Here's my opinion on the subject:
Who gives a sh**!!?
lol jk
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Hmm...shouldn't that be potato instead of po-ta-toe? ;-)
j/k
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Hmm...shouldn't that be potato instead of po-ta-toe? ;-)
j/k
It says PO-TA_TOES
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So it does, so it does. ;)
But what about potatos? Okay, I'll stop. Cool .gif, btw. If it is a .gif.
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If it is a .gif.
Only animated image format on the net right now. Animated PNGs are unofficial and mythical. ;P
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I could have sworn I once saw an animated PNG...hmm, perhaps I was mistaken. ;)
I haven't had my crash course in image standards since the old days...1997 to be exact.
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This is getting OFF TOPIC
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I could have sworn I once saw an animated PNG...hmm, perhaps I was mistaken. ;)
No, they do exist, though I don't think IE supports them... and even the guy who invented the PNG format says that it will never have a native animation mode and that any such implementation is a deviant form he won't recognize. Or some such.
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Damn, that's harsh. :)
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One, owing to director Hiroki Hayashi's inspiration for El-Hazard from Edgar Rice Burroughs' "Mars" series, perhaps El-Hazard is actually Mars only a long, long time in the past?
Hey... I hadn't thought of that! It does make sense. The rather arrid climate and terrain, ancient tech, little oasis pockets of fertile land.....
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Here's my opinion on the subject:
Who gives a sh**!!?
lol jk
This is getting OFF TOPIC
Yes, and who do we have to thank for that? -_-
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Hey... I hadn't thought of that! It does make sense. The rather arrid climate and terrain, ancient tech, little oasis pockets of fertile land.....
Also the fact that everyone's able to pretty much understand each other. The names of various people and things...and the inhabitants of El-Hazard seeming to be, for the most part, indistinguishable from Earthlings. Of course, this can all be more easily explained by
narrative conveinance (screen time isn't cheap) and the much more plausible alternate/parallel universe explanations.
But, hey, if one has to defend El-Hazard being in the same universe as Makoto and company's Earth, then it's not a bad way to go... :)
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String theory
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String theory
What? Like super-strings? What about it?
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Newest Physics theory, the latest attempt to produce the "Theory of Everything" that Einstein died working towards. Basically Physics currently can describe a lot of things on the BIG scale and a lot of things on the small scale, but the maths are not able to converge to describe things on All scales.
String Theory includes support for multiple/parallel dimensions and stuff and is pretty wild, but still currently is all speculation and none of its proven. Just on good momentum with some basic mathematical proofs.
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Everything can be explained on the Plank level. how about the EPR argument?
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Three chances:
1)El hazard is another world in another universe.
2)El hazard is another world in the same universe.
3)El hazard is an alternative reality of Earth. Just go to the far past, move a single rock, and return, to find yourself in a different world.
4)El hazard is the far future of Earth.
Theoretically, you can travel from Earth to EH through "wormholes" in all four cases. You just need the energy from a few hundred stars, sixth dimensional sensors and an Eye-of-god-size CPU. Or some million years to figure out how to do it with a rubber, a stick and an old marshmallow.. :P :P :P :P
About the wormholes, They say they exist. Think of paper with two dots, placed away from each other. In two dimensions, the fastest way is a straight line. In three, you can just wrap the paper to bring them close. Add time as the forth and you travel to past or future. Add something else as the fifth, and you hop through dimensions.
Add a sixth to get a panoramic view and you go everywhere...
(scream!!!): Hey this straitjacket is too tight!!!
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A good flick to watch is Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe", produced by PBS. It's quite inspirational to put some scientific ideas to multi-dimensional existence.
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Aaron Bergman had something like this in his "World of Endings Promised." The journey across dimensions granted the Wanderers immortality as well as their abilities... until something went wrong.
My take is that Earth, El-Hazard and Creteria are the same planet in three alternate/what-if dimensions. All three worlds have humans, and although many species are different, they all have basically-compatible animal and plant life.
Only a (cough) complete weirdo would write a semi-realistic story with a El-Hazard native who contracts terminal cancer. (BTW, I just wrote about 1000 words of Hana Ni Arashi. First real progress on that darn thing in ten months. Woo hoo!)
Another author, Alan Harnum, wrote a piece (still unfinished) titled "Mortal Engines" which addressed this issue... but from a different angle.
(yeah.. I know... you have it up on your website... heh)
Personally I ascribe to his view of what happens to Earthlings as they stay longer and longer on ElHazard... that the powers they have inhierited gradually alter them as time progresses.
regardless... as to diseases.. I'd think that either earthlings would be very susceptable to Elhazardian diseases(if they are human just like us)... and vice versa... or... they'd be completely immune (and vice versa) because of significant physiological/genetic structures. IE...just as you can't catch feline leukemia from your cat, Elhazardians may not actually be "human" at a genetic level.. they may simply look human and seem to have identical physiology as humans... but use entirely different DNA and RNA strings... and hence cannot catch human diseases at all.
Of course El Hazard could be a colony of a space faring civilization ( note the dual suns... very unlikely that a terran standard wolrd would be able to exist in a solar system with a binary star system.. mostly because the widely fluctuating solar energy would create wildly oscilating solar winds, creating hotter and colder cycles on the planet. Terraforming technology like nano tech would be needed to moderate such effects. If this is so, it's likely the elhazardians would have medical nanotech that would make them supremely healthy (they would never catch diseases), and it could be that such nanotech would exist in the food they eat and water they drink ... which would have also been introduced into the Earthlings as well since they've obviously eaten and drank
Anyway.. that said.. I don't think there was any indication of sickness on Elhazard at any point in any of the OVA's or TV shows.
Anyway... back to the point I was gonna make.
The powers of the earthlings seem to be growing as they stay on ElHazard.. at least to me they do... and if so...it's likely that they are changing for a reason.
Specifically, if you note, even when Fujisawa is pretty 'dry' at points early in the story... he never gets as strong as he did eventually when fighting the super bugrom. This seems to indicate that Fuijisawa's ability became stronger over time.
Likewise, Mokoto's interfacing ability seemed to get stronger as well. Specifically, he went from just grazing through Ifurita's memory store initially, to being able to communicate with her in her memories... to finally being able to delve into her core systems and destroy her obedience circuit.
That said.. a case could be made for this also being simply that they became more adept at using their abilities... but that doesn't seem to mesh well with Mr. Fujisawa's purely physical abilities. Seems to me he'd have had his glowy strength field before the time he exhibited it if this were the case.
Anyway... Alan Harnum seemed to be saying (in Mortal Engines) that all the earthlings were gradually becoming something more than human... which I think I agree with.
in that vein I reccomend taking a good hard look at the episode where Ifurita is awakened by Jinai, and fires a shot a Makoto... hiting the ground right in front of him. Take a good hard look at the explosion and the after affect.
You'll see that the explosion seems to wash along a spherical "safe" area around Makoto, looking rather like the force bubble that demongods are supposed to have around them according to the manga.
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Another author, Alan Harnum, wrote a piece (still unfinished) titled "Mortal Engines" which addressed this issue... but from a different angle.
(yeah.. I know... you have it up on your website... heh)
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You'll see that the explosion seems to wash along a spherical "safe" area around Makoto, looking rather like the force bubble that demongods are supposed to have around them according to the manga.
I sure liked Harnum's work...right up to the point where it ended UNFISHED. Meh. I HATE when that happens!
Thankfully, there are a number of writers who have the decency to finish what they start. :)
Speak of finished series, my friend and co-author Ken Wolfe wrote some solo work expanding on your last point. Those of you who have read his "Earth" series will recall the question Ken posited in the last part of the sixth installment--just how WOULD the conflict between Makoto's mortality and Ifurita's apparent immortality be resolved?
Your point of Makoto appearing to possess something only demon-gods were supposed to have foreshadows Ken's work nicely.
And yes, I'm deliberately being vauge for the benefit of those who might not have read the work. ;)
MJE
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I totally agree,
Alan Harnum's work has always been top notch as far as I am concerned.. better even than th vast majority of professional authors I've read. His style is one that I only wish I could emulate. He can, with few words, evoke images of startling crystal sharpness, and set a mood that is amost frighteningly vivid.
I also agree that I wish he'd finish Mortal Engines...it was too good a story to leave it unfinished. Who knows, maybe if enought people _politely_ told him how good the fic is... and how they wished he'd have finished it.. he might (one day) take up the story again.
As to the mortality issue... well... there have been a number of angles taken to address this issue by other authors. I enjoyed Ken's take on it. (which I'll also be notably vague about in the event someone has not read it yet)
Some of the more orginal have been ones like the one used in the story pair , A Paradise Built for Two and The Tale Of The Jinniyah And The King by Vince Seifert (I liked this one, while at the same time was a little creeped out by it... It's just too plausible for Makoto and Ifurita to fall into the trap shown in these two fics)
(Which again I won't spoil for the reader because it's too good to spoil.)
However, I have a particular like for Alan's thoughts on the matter because I believe his solution to the issue fits on so many different levels.
First, from a cultural perspective, the idea that Makoto might be changing into something more compatible with Ifurita fits nicely with the Japanese ethos of doing for others without worring about self.
Second, it fits the Zoroastrian/ indo-iraqi mythological mix that is found in El Hazard to a T. Specifically, if you know what to look for, you find references throughout the story to actual elements of the Zoroastrian religeon, and if you follow that vein you quickly find that Motoko falls squarely into the role of a meshiah (Saoshant) who would save the world, and bring about the triumph of truth, light, and freedom while becoming immortal himself in the end. (There has been a great deal of arguement among scholars of biblical lore that the three wise men supposedly present at the birth of Jesus were actually Zoroastrian priests) Anyway, back to El-Hazard... If one takes a look at Makoto's name, that right there is the first piece of the puzzle... His name translates to "truth". I think the rest of his deeds speak for themselves as to the light and freedom part of the story.
Third, during the OVA, there are a number of event clues that seem to indicate that Makoto's fate appears to be that he becomes something more than human. Specifically, note the opening credits where he is shown flying, with a contrail of some sort being left behind him (rather like Ifurita's contrail when she initially fly away from the forbidden island after she'd been awoken.), the previously mentioned oddity of Ifurita's attempt to blast him after their first "contact", and even how makoto was able to move fast enough to dodge her attempt to kill him in the bugrom hive at very close range.
Of course the real reason I support Alan's view is 'cus I like the symetry of it all.
Of course, all this could be moot, because after 10,000 years without a service checkup... Ifurita's warrenty could be up. That right there is one thing that I don't think anyone has explored. How would Ifurita and Makoto deal with the concept of Mortality if it suddenly came up that Ifurita was dying.
I've had an idea for a fic that initially focused on this issue perking around in my head for ages... (just haven't had the time to write it) where Makoto returns with Ifurita to ElHazard, and after arriving , they re-wind her "spring". However, during the process, a distinct snapping sound is heard and they discover that the stresses her being subjected to the eye of god and the passage of time has so damaged her systems, that only a partial rewind was possible. Furthermore, while a demongod can self repair to a great extent... the rewind mechanism is too complex for her self repair systems to fix, and it is no longer functional. This leaves her with a limited lifespan of perhaps (at most) 4 or 5 years living as a human, and less if she makes significant use of her full powers. Yeah I know, a bit contrived.. but it has a purpose for later in the plot ida, dealing with her love for makoto, or more specifically where her love for him springs.
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Unfortunately, every source I have suggests that all "polite" requests to Harnum to finish Mortal Engines were rebuffed. A few years back I guess the Utena fict bug bit him hard--he has yet to recover.
Yeah, Seifert's "A Paradise Built For Two" was funky spooky weird. But he more than redeemed himself with "Jinniyah and The King." Maybe I'm just dense, but I was guessing as to just whom the storyteller was right up to the final TWO WORDS. And in those last two words, the entire story seemed strangely satisfying.
Seifert and I have corresponded several times in the last couple years but it's been awhile. Being that I used to read a lot of Ranmafict, I also enjoyed his "Taming of the Horse" series.
<reads of Zoastrian mythology and a new story idea>
Hmm...
<checks the profiles page and notes Belldandyfan's hails from Spokane...>
Avery, is that you? From our dialogue after Wolfe and I published Rough Justice I would say so! I thought you'd have finished that work by now. It was a good idea then and is a good idea now. When last we corresponded, you figured that you would have a LOT of spare time on your hands. :P If you haven't written the piece yet, I hope I can take that to mean you're gainfully employed once again.
And the last line of your last post contains an absolutely hideous pun, I'll have you know.
M. J. Engels
Signal Technician
Brotherhood of Railroad Signalmen LU 14
CN Rail
Valparaiso, Indiana USA
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Unfortunately, every source I have suggests that all "polite" requests to Harnum to finish Mortal Engines were rebuffed.
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Yeah, Seifert's "A Paradise Built For Two" was funky spooky weird. But he more than redeemed himself with "Jinniyah and The King." Maybe I'm just dense, but I was guessing as to just whom the storyteller was right up to the final TWO WORDS. And in those last two words, the entire story seemed strangely satisfying.
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Avery, is that you? From our dialogue after Wolfe and I published Rough Justice I would say so!
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If you haven't written the piece yet, I hope I can take that to mean you're gainfully employed once again.
And the last line of your last post contains an absolutely hideous pun, I'll have you know.
In order of responces
I contacted harnum also, but he was unfailingly polite on the issue. He said that yes he had been bitten by the Utena bug, but that seems to have subsided. He also said that he was going to keep the fic to himself because he still might finish it someday. But that of course has been a long while now.
Yeah , that was spooky, but the ending in the followon piece made such sense.
Yep it's me
Oh as to the free time and employment.. that concept of having any free time lasted a couple days... and then I made a decision.. to return back to school, use the GI bill I still had.. and finish my EE degree. Just finishing up now.. just a class in VHDL, data structures, and engineering 408 to go ...As to employment... I'm working for a company called Quad group... you can find em at www.quadgroupinc.com. They do some really cool engineering stuff... Though currently I am just an intern, the owner likes me and is already talking permenant employ... but I am just waiting to see what develops. The interesting thing is that the owner, this 77 year old WWII vet, worked with Shockley(I forget the spelling) back in the 60's when the whole field of microelectronics was invented. Very cool guy... and a total genius. But I digress... anyway, free time evaporated the instant I decided to finish my engineering degree.. you know what I mean, late nights, lotsa calculus, lotsa circuit analysis.
Maybe someday I will actually get on with that fic idea of mine.. till I actually have the time to do it, I continue to develop the story line in my head and do a little outlining now and then to satisfy the demon... you know what I mean.
Later
Steve
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I've posted here before that I have an engineering background myself (BS Electrical Engineering Technology, Lake Superior State University, Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan May 1993.) So I can appreciate what you're going through. I use basic Boolean algebra and various DC and AC circuit theory concepts every day in my work, but on a very applied and specialized level.
http://www.csx.com/employee/index.cfm?fuseaction=jobs.desc&i=5118
I used to work for this company but now work for CN Rail in their US divisions. My "home road" used to be known as the Grand Trunk Western.
Before that I was a freelance electrical engineer and software tester all around Minneapolis. Suprised I never met Xel but I'm sure we ran with different packs. I was a member of a Minneapolis anime club for awhile, though. Used to hang out with Spanner from time to time up there.
So the (meta)physics of this thread interests me to no end.
Glad to hear you're back in school. As I recall, our listmeister Showalter is working to attain a technical degree too.
Shine on you crazy diamond!
And Adcock and Morris are both programmer peeps (bit heads!)
My email should be on my profile. Send me a note off list any time you want to talk shop.
Ah yes, memories. Visions of double integrals dancing in my head. Brr. Shiver. Having said that, however, the engineering principles still astound me to this day given that there were people over 100 years ago like Tesla, Edison and Westinghouse who first put them to practical use. Even the DC track circuit, the foundation of all railroad signaling practice, was first patented in the 1880s.
And the fellow you're thinking of is Shottky. The Shottky diode is named for him. Robert, help me remember here...I believe they use a P-type material along with a conductive metal like gold or silver instead of a standard PN junction used in a silicon or germanium diode. As I recall, this resulted in much faster switching speeds than other diodes, enabling the development of MOSFETs and CMOS ICs. From there we went almost immediately to the commercialization of microelectronics, including personal computers. And the rest, as they say, is history.
MJE