Pic-of-the-Moment v2.0 W-I-P

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

http://www.el-hazardonline.net/cgi-bin/picofthemoment/display.cgi

This is the updated script so far.  I'm planning on adding those nice extras like voting and hopefully forum-esque dating so that when really old ones are posted to, you're notified of it.  But since I figure voting should total a score and notify of our most popular captioneers, as well as all the rigs needed for simple things like keeping you from voting more than once or twice... well, that'll be some work applied over a few days.  

The major changes so far for those who care are:

1) The stored information has been converted to data files put together through CGI, instead of generated HTML files.  This will enable the possibility of all sorts of additional features, but at the very minimum now correctly records the poster and will follow any changes to their "Friendly Display Name" that may occur, as well as link to their on-site profile.  

2) The administrators had a limited random picture picker thing, but we really stopped using it very early on because the picks were just not funny.  Now we just select something and say "Hey, I think this has potential" and we slap it in.  This note of course only applies to us admins.

3) There's a new rule #5 -- basically, you can't directly reference characters who aren't present in the image.  One of our captioneers was a little too regular at doing this.    It's detracting because part of the challenge is to fill in the dialog blanks of all those who are present based on their expressions, not just write a random fanfic short or something.  Of course, you can still indirectly reference characters i.e. "Oh, Shayla won't like this one bit." even if Shayla weren't present.  But Shayla can't actually say or do anything in this example.


The script appears to be functional.  As soon as Tim gets home, I'll have him add a #101 since I think he has one in mind.  And then we can see if there are any immediate bugs.

Just in case, and to preserve a few old links, the previous "Pic of the Week Moment" script is still intact [temporarily!], but just refrain from using it, okay?


Now, for discussion:

A) How should votes be controlled?  Do you get one or two?  I mean, sometimes people write something really good, and someone writes something that deserves maybe half-credit on the same image.  If two votes are allowed, are both worth the same, or is one a half vote?

B) How should I handle "new pic updates" as far as the interface is concerned?  That is, when someone posts on any image and you haven't seen it yet, should it jump to the top of the droplist, get listed under a secondary list of some sort ("stuff you haven't seen yet")

C) Any other feature you'd like to see / stlyle change suggestions?

[Spanner]

3) There's a new rule #5 -- basically, you can't directly reference characters who aren't present in the image.  One of our captioneers was a little too regular at doing this. It's detracting because part of the challenge is to fill in the dialog blanks of all those who are present based on their expressions, not just write a random fanfic short or something.  Of course, you can still indirectly reference characters i.e. "Oh, Shayla won't like this one bit." even if Shayla weren't present.  But Shayla can't actually say or do anything in this example.

Hmph... I don't like this rule. Perhaps the privilege can be abused, but cutting out the interactions of individuals not present in the picture can SERIOUSLY restrict some otherwise humorous dialog. Particularly when "all those present" consists of only one character.

I would suggest that, rather than making this a RULE, persay, just make it a suggestion. When people decide to go against the suggestion, let the votes decide whether it was worthwhile or not.

A) How should votes be controlled?  Do you get one or two?  I mean, sometimes people write something really good, and someone writes something that deserves maybe half-credit on the same image.  If two votes are allowed, are both worth the same, or is one a half vote?

I think that two votes is a good idea. Heck, if it's not too hard to implement, perhaps you should allow the reader to rank all of the available quotes. If it's just two votes, I have no particular preference as to how much weight each vote receives.

You should, however, be sure to allow a voter to change their minds later and vote for something else. This is necessary for those instances when someone writes a new quote for an old image - perhaps it will be better than the readers previous favorite for that picture.

B) How should I handle "new pic updates" as far as the interface is concerned?  That is, when someone posts on any image and you haven't seen it yet, should it jump to the top of the droplist, get listed under a secondary list of some sort ("stuff you haven't seen yet")

I think you should have a list with the pictures ranked in order of "most recent addition". However, it's important that new images not be lost in the shuffle - if a new image is put up, and is immediately bumped to the sixth position on the list or so, it might never get any contributions! In addition to the list ranked by most recent addition, there should be a link to the most recently added picture - or, perhaps even an entire second list, ranked by the order that the images were added to the archive, like the one you currently have on your demonstration page.

Whatever you do, please continue to note what day the last quote was added to a picture! I find that quite helpful even now in figuring out what needs reading. Even if you provide a list in order of most recent change, it'll still be helpful to know WHEN those most recent changes took place.

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

Hmph... I don't like this rule. Perhaps the privilege can be abused, but cutting out the interactions of individuals not present in the picture can SERIOUSLY restrict some otherwise humorous dialog. Particularly when "all those present" consists of only one character.

Okay, right.  Particularly the solo situation.  How about I reword it to something like -- yes, as a suggestion -- that all action try to circle around the major character(s) present.  Of course, just to reinforce the worst case scenario, see reply #1 of pic #81 (sorry Lar ;p)
http://www.el-hazardonline.net/cgi-bin/picofthemoment/display.cgi?display=81

Just making it mean nothing really can create quotes that radically ignore characters and make events that even leave the picture.  Perhaps though this is more personal bias than an actual problem.  

I think that two votes is a good idea. Heck, if it's not too hard to implement, perhaps you should allow the reader to rank all of the available quotes. If it's just two votes, I have no particular preference as to how much weight each vote receives.

Well, ranking all available might take more time than some people really want to put into it, as opposed to just a quick-click-bam stamp of approval from someone.  

Whatever you do, please continue to note what day the last quote was added to a picture! I find that quite helpful even now in figuring out what needs reading. Even if you provide a list in order of most recent change, it'll still be helpful to know WHEN those most recent changes took place.

Yeah.  I have to convert dates into some type of numerical format though so that I can do date sorting and stuff.  So for now it's not displayed, but that's just temporary.

[larewen_evenstar]

It was me who kept using OOFrame peaople, wasn't it? I'll be surprised if it wasn't.

[MrWhat]

1) The stored information has been converted to data files put together through CGI, instead of generated HTML files.  This will enable the possibility of all sorts of additional features, but at the very minimum now correctly records the poster and will follow any changes to their "Friendly Display Name" that may occur, as well as link to their on-site profile.  

Very nice.  Besides all that, showing the name as a link helps set it off.

3) There's a new rule #5 -- basically, you can't directly reference characters who aren't present in the image.  One of our captioneers was a little too regular at doing this.    It's detracting because part of the challenge is to fill in the dialog blanks of all those who are present based on their expressions, not just write a random fanfic short or something.  Of course, you can still indirectly reference characters i.e. "Oh, Shayla won't like this one bit." even if Shayla weren't present.  But Shayla can't actually say or do anything in this example.

I'm afraid that I agree with Spanner.  Please, no hard-and-fast rules on caption content.  But if you'd prefer to see straightforward dialogue captions, I'll try to keep that in mind.

If you don't like the long captions that border on fanfics, you could set a maximum length on that entry box.  (Several of mine ran plenty long.  When you edit your captions in Notepad instead of the little text box, that's probably your first clue.)  Then again, that could be restrictive if the picture includes several characters.  Well, it's your call.

If you're choosing some pictures with a theme in mind, you could emphasize that in the titles.  Something like "Things Nanami and Shayla argue about besides Makoto," or "What is Alielle holding in her other hand?"

A) How should votes be controlled?  Do you get one or two?  I mean, sometimes people write something really good, and someone writes something that deserves maybe half-credit on the same image.  If two votes are allowed, are both worth the same, or is one a half vote?

That could get complicated for you.  You'd have to keep track of whether a user has voted zero times, once or twice.  And if a user changes their vote for a new caption, and they've already voted twice, which of the old votes gets taken away?

Pardon me while I do some thinking out loud.  How about a Votes data table like this?  (You shouldn't have asked a database programmer for input.)

PictureNumber
CaptionUserName (the key name that doesn't change)
VoterUserName
Vote (0-5) (1=worst, 3=average, 5=best, 0=no vote or vote deleted)

Primary key is the first three fields.

And then, you can display for each caption, after the caption's user name:
--a non-zero vote count
--an average value of the non-zero votes, or even little movie rating stars
--a little six-item drop-down list (0 to 5) that shows your vote, and a button to set your vote.
Hide the list and button if (CaptionUserName==CurrentUserName).

But that's easy for me to say, right?  Implementing voting will be a lot of work, any way you do it, I suppose.

B) How should I handle "new pic updates" as far as the interface is concerned?  That is, when someone posts on any image and you haven't seen it yet, should it jump to the top of the droplist, get listed under a secondary list of some sort ("stuff you haven't seen yet")

I'd like two simple sorts-- by picture-number and by latest-caption-date.  Anything else would be more work for you that it's worth, I think.

Maybe pictures with captions less than a week? old get an asterisk or a "(NEW)" after their name.

C) Any other feature you'd like to see / stlyle change suggestions?

Some pie-in-the-sky ideas:

Just a thought, from personal experience.  Users may complain about using a drop-down list control in data entry forms when the number of choices increases to about, well, 100 items or so.  Maybe later, you could have the list "collapse" ranges of items, and expand only the range you're looking at?  Like web-comics that have a drop-down list of story-arcs, and individual comics in the current story-arc only.

Allow caption edits.  Or just let a user delete captions and re-enter them.  For example, now I wish I'd used "glomps" instead of "tackles" for picture #100.  But it might be easier to politely ask an administrator for changes.

Limited HTML markup, or YaBB codes, in captions.  For example, to allow a caption like this:
Shayla:  What the hell is that!?

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

I'm afraid that I agree with Spanner.  Please, no hard-and-fast rules on caption content.  But if you'd prefer to see straightforward dialogue captions, I'll try to keep that in mind.

If you don't like the long captions that border on fanfics, you could set a maximum length on that entry box.  (Several of mine ran plenty long.  When you edit your captions in Notepad instead of the little text box, that's probably your first clue.)  Then again, that could be restrictive if the picture includes several characters.  Well, it's your call.

If you're choosing some pictures with a theme in mind, you could emphasize that in the titles.  Something like "Things Nanami and Shayla argue about besides Makoto," or "What is Alielle holding in her other hand?"

Nah nah... I was a bit limited in the idea when I wrote it.  I don't want to guide any of these only because some of the stuff people have written was something I never even thought of.  Example, #23 by Mr. What: "WEDGIE!!"  I guess I've just seen a few bad occurances where someone took a shortcut and completely bypassed the goodness of the image by going off into a complete tangent.  But I suppose implementing voting systems will possibly keep things in check better than preemptive rulings.

That could get complicated for you.  You'd have to keep track of whether a user has voted zero times, once or twice.  And if a user changes their vote for a new caption, and they've already voted twice, which of the old votes gets taken away?

Pardon me while I do some thinking out loud.  How about a Votes data table like this?  

...

But that's easy for me to say, right?  Implementing voting will be a lot of work, any way you do it, I suppose.

That does sound a little more complicated then what is probably needed.  I'm all for K.I.S.S.    I'll think about it more.  I seem to do best when I'm actually working actively towards a goal.  I can let you know the final implementation if you're still interested.

Just a thought, from personal experience.  Users may complain about using a drop-down list control in data entry forms when the number of choices increases to about, well, 100 items or so.  Maybe later, you could have the list "collapse" ranges of items, and expand only the range you're looking at?  Like web-comics that have a drop-down list of story-arcs, and individual comics in the current story-arc only.

The only thing about limitations of any sort is that they would require Javascript to be done in a convient manner.  And a non-Java version should be available for any given circumstance, but then that might mean "#1-#10" out of a droplist and then a "GO" button to get you to the next list that also has a "GO" button.  Not a real big deal I guess.

Allow caption edits.  Or just let a user delete captions and re-enter them.  For example, now I wish I'd used "glomps" instead of "tackles" for picture #100.  But it might be easier to politely ask an administrator for changes.

Well, I was thinking about that.  Technically it should be possible now thanks to changing the system to actually realize authors based on registration data files instead of just posting unmanaged text.

Limited HTML markup, or YaBB codes, in captions.  For example, to allow a caption like this:
Shayla:  What the hell is that!?

Actually, you've always been able to use HTML.  I never implemented any filters.    It was just never specified either.  I probably should implement "safe" HTML filters that would kill any potentially dangerous and/or annoying tags... but I guess I don't really believe I'm going to have that many hackers.    (Although the eholmemberfile.cgi script is actually pretty well set for different file access cases including "drop down" directory thingies "..")

[Saucer]

Now, for discussion:

A) How should votes be controlled?  Do you get one or two?  I mean, sometimes people write something really good, and someone writes something that deserves maybe half-credit on the same image.  If two votes are allowed, are both worth the same, or is one a half vote?

Maybe 1/2-1 vote is good. Or perhaps, one vote per quote per hour (the new YaBB script has this for use as "Karma Points")? THat way, if you go back somehting later, and it's just as funny as the first time you read it, you can award it another point.

B) How should I handle "new pic updates" as far as the interface is concerned?  That is, when someone posts on any image and you haven't seen it yet, should it jump to the top of the droplist, get listed under a secondary list of some sort ("stuff you haven't seen yet")

One of the things I liked about the old layout was that, you could see the date next to the pic link. So, I could tell at a glance what's been posted to lately, and know which I need to check or not. You can't really tell that from the current layout. Some way of sorting by last post date, like the forum?

C) Any other feature you'd like to see / stlyle change suggestions?

I don't know if you can/want to pull it off, or how much trouble it would be to do, but maybe you could sort of lay it out like the forum? The pull down list  at the top is good, since they sorted by date added, and you can jump to any one with a click. But maybe below that, some way to display the links to pics, sorted by last date that a caption was posted (I think something like this has been mentioned already?). You can display maybe 20 links at a time. I don't know, but personally I find the old layout to be very useful myself.

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

I don't know if you can/want to pull it off, or how much trouble it would be to do, but maybe you could sort of lay it out like the forum? The pull down list  at the top is good, since they sorted by date added, and you can jump to any one with a click. But maybe below that, some way to display the links to pics, sorted by last date that a caption was posted (I think something like this has been mentioned already?). You can display maybe 20 links at a time. I don't know, but personally I find the old layout to be very useful myself.

Actually, I like that idea; forum-esque layout.  I'm still not totally sure how YaBB and other forums do massive date sorting on their entries, but it could possibly work.

See, I just thought the ever-growing list at the bottom looked unprofessional and clunky.  And I personally had trouble scanning dates for recent postings and would frequently make silly errors based on "lazy reading"; i.e., during July, I'd think I saw a recent update but in reality the month was "June".  But at least page breaks would help keep some order.  And once I figure out what the concept is that sorts dates (I'm assuming its based on numerical representation of date and time, the "Unix Epoch") it should work pretty well.  Should.  Maybe.

And just so it isn't said again -- I WILL bring back some way to see when one was changed.  I only took it down temporarily because we're trying to reach a new, better, easier-to-read-and-use design.

[Spanner]

Bwahahaha! I have posted to PotM v2.0 for the very first time! It's not very funny, and it blatantly flaunts its disregard for Rob's "no offscreen characters" request! F33l teh 3v|1!!!

Yes, I AM a rebel.

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

Alright, alright, enough mocking me and my limited foresight.  ;p  *steps on rule #5*

[MrWhat]

Wow.  Nine captions for Picture #101, as I type this.  That's about as many as any of them have had, isn't it?  Feel the captioned love.

Actually, I like that idea; forum-esque layout.

Yeah...  If you've still got the code for the table of pictures and latest-caption-dates that was at the bottom of the old layout-- maybe you could just send that table alone to a second separate page with its own static HTTP address.  Then you could add the sort by latest-caption-date, and the other bells and whistles, to that second page, and keep the "current" page's drop-down list clean and simple.

*steps on rule #5*

I'm sorry, Rob!  I'm sorry!  One more joke.  After I saw your note on the caption page:

5. Stop mocking the recent compromises and poor decisions concerning rule #5.

Rule Six:  There is NO!!... Rule Six.

Right, that concludes the reading of the rules, Bruce.

This here's the picture.  The emblem of our land.
You can stick it in a caption.  You can hold it in your hand.

Amen!

[Saucer]

Actually, I like that idea; forum-esque layout.  I'm still not totally sure how YaBB and other forums do massive date sorting on their entries, but it could possibly work.

Yeah yeah, that's the ticket! Maybe you can cannibalize the YaBB script somehow?

See, I just thought the ever-growing list at the bottom looked unprofessional and clunky.  And I personally had trouble scanning dates for recent postings and would frequently make silly errors based on "lazy reading"; i.e., during July, I'd think I saw a recent update but in reality the month was "June".  But at least page breaks would help keep some order.  And once I figure out what the concept is that sorts dates (I'm assuming its based on numerical representation of date and time, the "Unix Epoch") it should work pretty well.  Should.  Maybe.

And just so it isn't said again -- I WILL bring back some way to see when one was changed.  I only took it down temporarily because we're trying to reach a new, better, easier-to-read-and-use design.

Yup. Plus the longer the list is, the longer the page takes to load. Having been on a dial-up for years, I know how excruciating that can be.