Ha! If the first topic wasn't enough..(Douji x 3)

[MrWhat]

Alrighty.  I think this discussion was at least partly my fault, and since it's continued, I'd like to try to clarify my previously stated position.  And yes, I think this is a dangerous topic for a message board, so I'll try to make this my last post on the topic.  It'll help kill a Saturday evening in Gillespie IL, anyway.

With regards to Teh Ghey.  My understanding is that the current scientific opinion is that "born that way" is an over-simplification, but-- people are born with genetic predispositions that may or may not be affected by their environment.  Essentially, sexual orientation is not a "choice."  Further, my understanding is that male homosexuality and female homosexuality are different, just as heterosexual male and female responses are different.

I believe there are also studies that indicate that women are generally more accepting of lesbians than men are of male gays.  But it is also my understanding that these opinions are not as generally accepted as the other conclusions.  If nothing else, these studies were joked about as being suspect because they were conducted by heterosexual men  

Now.  What about me?   Well, let me try to re-state how I feel, hopefully without providing Too Much Information.

I wish that every touch didn't have to have sexual connotations.  I wish all people could be physically closer in general.  People react positively to physical contact.  It can be a real comfort.  I think I remember reading where touch can have a direct impact on a person's health.

I remember watching a British TV show, where these two older gentlemen were walking down a road together, arm in arm, chatting about having lunch.  As far as I know, both characters in the TV show were straight.  I think a lot of guys would say that is Teh Ghey, but I thought it was rather nice.  I don't know, maybe you see that more often in other places than in the midwest US.

Now, men kissing is where I start to have problems.  I guess kissing is a borderline sexual act for me.  Maybe that's my environment.  Maybe that's my genetic predisposition.  And that's also where the hypocrisy starts.  Women kissing each other doesn't bother me, although it doesn't, uh, interest me as much as it seems to interest other straight guys.  But I just don't like to see men kissing.  I just... don't.

And men doing more than kissing... well, that's when my heebies and jeebies start screaming.

But when it's two women?  At the risk of generalizing again-- my favorite theory is, it's not that it's two women doing things to each other as much as it's just two women.  For a straight guy, it's like, double your pleasure, double your fun.  And you get to look at a second female form, which is more aesthetically pleasing than some guy's big hairy butt.  And for straight women, it's just the same thing in reverse.

If men were logical about things, they shouldn't "like" to see lesbianism, if for no other reason than that reduces a single straight guy's possibilities by two.  But none of this is logical, is it?

Having said that... I sincerely enjoyed Xel's fan fiction, and I'll usually make an effort to read shounen-ai fan fiction that has a humorous edge to it.  It's not personally enjoyable for me, in the same way it might be for a heterosexual female, or in the same way that shoujo-ai stereotypically is for a straight guy.  But for me, it gives the humor an extra punch when my heebies and jeebies are screaming.

One last note... I agree, again, that explicit content in creative works is almost always more enjoyable when you have an emotional connection with the characters.  Again, I think a lot of guys would say that is Teh Ghey.  But a little story-line, a little dramatic conflict, and a little humor, makes the payoff so much better.

Of course, an emotional connection isn't required when you delve into the wild and wacky world of fetishes.  I'm pretty sure several of you could out-weird me any day-- but besides all the other weird things I've joked about in my fan-fiction and captions and such-- you don't need an involving back-story when you're watching to see how many naked women can stuff themselves into a phone booth.  (BTW, the answer is 17.)

Okay, that's more than enough of that.  And here's the requisite

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

To reiterate: I have brought the   into our standard collection anyways for the time being.

Lemme see... ah yes, in other news, all doujinshi and related materials are cleanly stuffed into a new site section.  Includes all the color hentai single images I know to exist (and have been posted by Kiddo at least twice) and a second half to the same book that "Ick Factor" came from.  (I matched it via a scan from an eBay auction I held on to; I kept these scans of the ones I don't own as a gag originally, but now they're proving useful.)

You can currently only access it via the main page menu or you can click here

It's invisible to non-logged in / unregistered members... I'm trying to prevent another MP3 fiasco, y'know?  (People registered just to download MP3's; I can see the same for hentai)

[Lord God Jinnai]

I think environment and upbringing has a major impact on how tolerant a person is to gays. In ancient Greece and Rome for instance, sex between men were perfectly acceptable, and in some city states even preferred to straight sex. In Greece, it was the male form that was considered the summit of beauty, while the female body was the one considered unsightly.

I remember watching a British TV show, where these two older gentlemen were walking down a road together, arm in arm, chatting about having lunch.  

That wouldn't have been the Doctor Who episode The Two Doctors would it? Cuz that scene wasn't as pleasant as you made it out to seem. Although those two were chatting about lunch, eventually the conversation turned to cannibalism.  

[Spanner]

I think it's also worth noting that fantasy homosexuality and real-life homosexuality are pretty much as different as night and day. In fantasy settings, whether they be relatively innocent or hardcore pr0n, the characters generally don't have to worry about things like social ostricization or bigotry. Heck, a lot of the time it's almost as though no one even notices what gender the participants are. When observing two men or two women sitting together and chatting over lunch, other individuals in the fantasy are as likely to wonder whether they're romantically involved as they would if it was a man and a woman chatting. If a character IS homosexual, he or she is usually completely comfortable with it, and neither feels the need to hide it or to flaunt it. If someone is openly homosexual, his or her same-sex friends are also completely comfortable with it, as well. They never wonder, "Is he/she coming on to me? Does he/she find me attractive? If he/she does, should I be flattered or offended?"

In real life, of course, homosexuality is nothing like that. Discovering that oneself is homosexual is usually a pretty traumatic experience. And with good reason - a homosexual is in for a lot of strife in his or her future. Society tends to view homosexuals with distrust and dislike (and not just western societies - for all the prominence of homosexual themes in their literature, Japanese conformism ensures that homosexuals are kept firmly in "their place" as well). Finding a life partner can be difficult, because in spite of misleading statistics, homosexuals simply aren't very common.

I, even though I do enjoy joking about it and stuff, tend to disapprove of homosexuality in anime, manga, fanfiction, etc. It's not because I'm homophobic. Actually, it's pretty near the complete opposite - I disapprove of it because I feel that it trivializes and romanticizes real-life homosexuality. Every now and then, a teenaged girl (it's almost always a girl) on one or another of the mailing lists announces that she's decided to be bisexual. Each time, I can't help but wonder whether she really knows what she's getting into, or whether she was just so taken with the romantic story of Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus (or whatever other ideallic lesbian couple happens to be in vogue) that she had to try it herself.

Perhaps, though, I'm merely being a bit too curmudgeony. After all, pretty much ALL romance in pop literature is hardly a good mirror of anything in real-life. For some reason, though, fantasy homosexuality tends to bother me more.

[Saucer]

Actually, I have to agree with all this business.  But yes, normally it's all true, except that it was an immediate box-in even worse than "another guy" taking the girl, it was a girl taking the girl, which made it virtually impossible to compete.    But that was a special case.

I feel that, if I can't be with a girl I like because she's with another girl then it's not so bad (that male competition thing, ya know). However, if I lost a girl to another girl it might be another situation. Can't say myself, never been in that position.

But when it's two women?  At the risk of generalizing again-- my favorite theory is, it's not that it's two women doing things to each other as much as it's just two women.  For a straight guy, it's like, double your pleasure, double your fun.  And you get to look at a second female form, which is more aesthetically pleasing than some guy's big hairy butt.  And for straight women, it's just the same thing in reverse.

Yes, "double your pleasure" was exactly the phrase I was looking for! Sankyu  

I, even though I do enjoy joking about it and stuff, tend to disapprove of homosexuality in anime, manga, fanfiction, etc. It's not because I'm homophobic. Actually, it's pretty near the complete opposite - I disapprove of it because I feel that it trivializes and romanticizes real-life homosexuality. Every now and then, a teenaged girl (it's almost always a girl) on one or another of the mailing lists announces that she's decided to be bisexual. Each time, I can't help but wonder whether she really knows what she's getting into, or whether she was just so taken with the romantic story of Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus (or whatever other ideallic lesbian couple happens to be in vogue) that she had to try it herself.

Perhaps, though, I'm merely being a bit too curmudgeony. After all, pretty much ALL romance in pop literature is hardly a good mirror of anything in real-life. For some reason, though, fantasy homosexuality tends to bother me more.

Alot of perceived homosexuality in anime and manga is not always what it seems. At least once in their life, a fan will ask "Are all Japanese women gay?" This question tends to come about because of scenes - usually in shoujo anime, although I recall some "memorable" moments from Gunbuster - where a woman will suddenly blush and get "floaty" at seeing another girl. Usually, an upperclassman who is both strong and beautiful. Although the girl in question may not neccesarily be a lesbian, she sees the other girl as an ideal partner and can envision the two in a relationship together. Doesn't necessarily mean she wants to be with her. Women look up to other women, who prove to be a strong role model. And, though Japanese are not more accepting of homosexuality than countries in the west are, there aren't all the religious taboos and conotations that exist in the west. It's not all uncommon for a young girl to develop a crush on a Takazaraku actress (Japanese all-women theater. I'm pretty sure I've misspelled it too). In fact, most families consider it healthy. As, it helps delay their daughter falling into what might be an unhealthy relationship woth a boy too early.

[mark_engels]

It is hard for hentai to even approach romantic.  Let's face it, doujinshi artists are typically going for a goal.  I personally on the other hand prefer sex to be part of a larger plot, something that two people finally reach after pining for each other at a soulful level for a conciderably long amount of time.  Something emotional rather than purely physical.  Of course I'm just getting off topic.    These drawings are satisfying for the curiosity, however, especially when they're well drawn in a very similar or dead-on style.

I would have to agree.  That is why I particularly enjoyed Ken Wolfe's story "Reunited."  It's a side story to his "Earth" series, and furnishes us a glimpse of just how badly Ifurita and Makoto pined for one another.  While I'll admit it is certainly deserving of the lemon tag, it's far from physical gratification for its own sake.  Rather, it's a story of resolution and acceptance--as you can imagine Ifurita has centuries of baggage to deal with.  The dialogue is heartfelt and satisfying to read, allowing the reader to feel by the time the story ends a sense of pride in their ability to deal with their issues.

And the imagery ain't bad neither.  

http://www.mts.net/~kenwolfe/fanfic.html

You can find the entire "Earth" series and the "Reunited" side story at the above link.  Recommended reading for all EH fans, in fact, with the manga they were the primary reason I joined the fandom.

--me

Mark Engels

[Captain Southbird (EHOL Creator)]

And now, I must do something completely juvenile.



*snickers*  *decked by Engels*


Sorry, I have nothing useful left to add.  

I also need to read that fanfic one of these days.  Maybe during one of my class breaks at school when I get my laptop back OR I print it out and haul it around.

[mark_engels]

And now, I must do something completely juvenile.

.
.
.
*snickers*  *decked by Engels*


Sorry, I have nothing useful left to add.  

And here I thought you were going to say something profound and all.  How disappointing!  

I also need to read that fanfic one of these days.  Maybe during one of my class breaks at school when I get my laptop back OR I print it out and haul it around.

Yes, you do.  And read all of "Earth" and "Reunited" while you're at it.  I think you'll agree they're worthwhile.

[shameless_plug]
And if you REALLY feel ambitious you can give "Rough Justice" a once over.  
[/shameless_plug]

--me

Mark Engels

Whose post count ought be up to 70 now.  

[Spanner]

"If you're us, then what number are we thinking of right now?"

"69, dude!"

"Whoa!"

Ah, Keanu Reeves, in what was undoubtedly his greatest role...

[larewen_evenstar]

One thing I've always thought was interesting is the widely-accepted love that guys have for lesbians,

Funny that...Rosh said that to me once...I think I still have that IM somewhere.... ^_^

Similiarly, somewhere between the ages of 11-13 all humans suddenly find themselves akwardly "aware" of a particular gender and curious of their own.  To what amounts/extremes is up to something else.

*checks her age* Thanks Rob. *I'm 13.  *

Not to make this into a  thing,"homosexuality is not natural and therefore punishable by death"

Thanks...again... I think the pope thinks that the above quote ' "homosexuality is not natural and therefore punishable by death" ' is totally true. *I'm not dissing anyones religion. I just don't care much for the pope at this moment in time.  

Keep in mind, some women get turned on by seeing two guys for the same reason some men get turned on by seeing two women.

Well, I remember one day at school, these two guys were walking down the corridor holding hands, and I instantly thought two things: Yes! I am not alone! ^_^ and 2. Good on ya...whoever you are.

I believe there are also studies that indicate that women are generally more accepting of lesbians than men are of male gays.

Hehehe...from my experience, neither gender accepts gays or lesbians. I was dragged into a fight because I'm going out with Rosh *sorry, broke a rule*. And that's probably one of the reasons I'm only bi, and not a lesbian. Because at least, being a bi means that you still have a little freedom. Even though you do get the odd person who asks you to go out with some guy you either hate or don't know, and then a few minutes later asks you too go out with some girl you hate or don't know.    I have experienced this far too many times, and I bet its doing me some internal damage.

I think environment and upbringing has a major impact on how tolerant a person is to gays. In ancient Greece and Rome for instance, sex between men were perfectly acceptable, and in some city states even preferred to straight sex.

Well, I've been thinking something along those lines recently. See, straight usually means, in one path or line, so therefore that would probably mean that gays and lesbians are 'straight' but 'straight' people are technically not, because that's mixing genders, and therefore, no longer a straight continuous line.

If a character IS homosexual, he or she is usually completely comfortable with it, and neither feels the need to hide it or to flaunt it. If someone is openly homosexual, his or her same-sex friends are also completely comfortable with it, as well.

*thinks of standing in the middle of a whole load on general public and then pinching rosh's bum* hehehe...

In real life, of course, homosexuality is nothing like that. Discovering that oneself is homosexual is usually a pretty traumatic experience.

I cried.

Every now and then, a teenaged girl (it's almost always a girl) on one or another of the mailing lists announces that she's decided to be bisexual. Each time, I can't help but wonder whether she really knows what she's getting into, or whether she was just so taken with the romantic story of Sailor Neptune and Sailor Uranus (or whatever other ideallic lesbian couple happens to be in vogue) that she had to try it herself.

Well, I truley meant it. *folds arms* I didn't just do it because of anime, or TV or anything.

I, even though I do enjoy joking about it and stuff

I do too.  :-/  

However, if I lost a girl to another girl it might be another situation. Can't say myself, never been in that position.  

*out-take from friends*


*thanks everyone in the rooms, refrains from hugging everyone, and leaves.* I think that was one of my longest ever posts.  

[MrWhat]

That wouldn't have been the Doctor Who episode The Two Doctors would it? Cuz that scene wasn't as pleasant as you made it out to seem. Although those two were chatting about lunch, eventually the conversation turned to cannibalism.  

I was thinking I'd seen a more realistic scene just like that, in another British TV drama, or a foreign film, or somewhere.  Oh well.  Maybe I was mis-remembering the Who scene.  It's been a few years since I saw it.

I hope the point that I was trying to make will stand without that example.

The Two Doctors is the next Colin Baker serial scheduled for DVD release, isn't it?   I think I remember reading that they had enough extras to make it a 2-DVD set.

[larewen_evenstar]

No one ever replies to my views.  

[Spanner]

No one ever replies to my views.  

Maybe that just means everyone agrees with you!

Oh, and I'm sorry if you took offense at my post, Lar - I wasn't trying to single you out.

As for the Pope, and religious taboos against homosexuality in general... Well, that's pretty complicated. I attended a Catholic college (I'm not Catholic, or even particularly religious, but it was near to where I lived, and had an excellent computer science program), and learned a fair bit about Christian history while I was there. It helps to know the history behind the ban on homosexuality.

Like many things that are banned, homosexuality was banned due to the way that homosexuality was misused and abused at the time. In ancient Greece, for instance (not the only time that homosexuality came under a bad light in Judeo-Christian history, but one of the most prominent), it is well-known that homosexuality was common. What not so many people know, though, is that homosexual pairings usually consisted of a man choosing a much younger boy to be his... erm... female (I could choose cruder terms ). In many cases, the younger partner would be branded as a sort of second-class citizen for the rest of his life. It was also often the case that love wasn't involved at all - these boys were chosen in much the same way that "trophy wives" are chosen today, as a symbol of status, and the more beautiful the boy, the better. Even when love WAS involved, there was a very clear distinction between who was the social superior and who was his subordinate. Basically, homosexuality was also pedophilia.

Jews at the time were disgusted with this practice, perhaps rightfully so. This was the most common form of homosexuality at the time. What would be considered "normal" homosexuality today was considered little more than flukes at the time, and was not seriously considered. And, so, like many things that were disliked by ancient peoples, homosexuality became first a social ("We say it's wrong"), then a religious ("God says it's wrong") taboo. When Christianity began, they continued the traditions begun by their Jewish predecessors.

One of the duties of the Pope is to uphold the traditions long-established by Catholicism. In some ways, this is an awesome thing - there are not many things created by mankind that can be said to have lasted more than two thousand years. It is hardly surprising that the Catholic church is slow and reluctant to change. Unfortunately, this often means that traditions get upheld that are pointless, irritating, or outright wrong, simply because they ARE, in fact, tradition.

It's easy to get angry with the traditions that you don't agree with. But if all the Catholic traditions that a significant number of people disagreed with were immediately thrown out, there wouldn't BE Catholicism. (Of course, some people would be perfectly happy with that. ) I don't mean by this that you should be content with the Catholic stance against homosexuality, or that you shouldn't complain. You should, though, try to understand WHY this problem exists.

Basically, like most social problems, it's not simply a case of pointing at someone (in this case, the Pope) and saying, "If it wasn't for this guy, everything would be better!" It's much, much deeper and more complicated than that.

[larewen_evenstar]

I understand that some religions believe that it is wrong, and I don't like dissing anyones religion. But what about that minister, who was gay, who got driven from his post as the bishop of somewhere in england, because he was gay? I think that it was a bit harsh of them.

True love matters more than gender. So people fall in love, some don't. doesn't matter what gender you are, so long as you find the person you are truley happy with.

There was a film about two girls who became best friends, and they made clay models, and acted out scenes from a book they were either reading, or writing, I'm not sure which. And eventually they started acting out the love scences with each other. They were sent to phycaiatrists because everyone thought they were to close, everyone thought they were crazy.

One of the girls(i think her name was julie, she was played by Kate winslet) got ill, and had to be taken to anotehr country, but wouldn't go unless the other one came with her, so they plotted to kill one of the girls mothers and they did. They killed her with a brick in a pair of tights. They killed because they had fallen in love, and they weren't allowed to be together. They were both sent to different prisons in New Zealand, (I think) and it was a true story. It was a great film. and I admire it. But my mum taped over it.

Just think about it. Homosexuals aren't allowed to be together because of religion, because of family and friends. We're with drawn from society because we are different. I could have been beaten to a pulp because I was going out with another girl, but luckily a teacher came along. If he hadn't, then I would probably have been forced to move schools.

This is how much people hate homosexuals. I have been reasurred by people so many times, but I can't be reassured anymore. I have been through pain, not as much as some though, because of who I am.

[Lord God Jinnai]

I was thinking I'd seen a more realistic scene just like that, in another British TV drama, or a foreign film, or somewhere.  Oh well.  Maybe I was mis-remembering the Who scene.  It's been a few years since I saw it.

I hope the point that I was trying to make will stand without that example.

Well, the example still holds. The first time I watched that episode was with a very, very silly and incredibly stupid friend of mine. While they showed that scene of the 2nd Doc and Shockeye strolling down the Spanish countryside, arm-in-arm, my friend snickered and began saying, "CoughHOMOcough"

Even though I laughed, I was very appalled by my pal's behavior. Shock and appalled. You have to admit, though, that those two wearing the tuxedos and top-hats didn't help them out any.

The Two Doctors is the next Colin Baker serial scheduled for DVD release, isn't it?   I think I remember reading that they had enough extras to make it a 2-DVD set.

Yes indeed, The Two Doctors is the next 6th Doctor episode slated for release. It looks massive! A definate buy for me, since Two Doctors is, in my opinion, one of the best Colin Baker stories ever. All this extra crap just makes the deal even sweeter. I hope they release this thing in the US soon.