El-Hazard Online
General => El-Hazard Online => Topic started by: Triple_R on May 11, 2009, 07:47:23 pm
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I recently started writing a fanfic called "The El Hazard of Haruhi Suzumiya". It combines the two awesome animes of the same name (El Hazard and the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya)!
Chapter 1 is here: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068
I'd love to know what my fellow El Hazard fans think of it so far! :)
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Not bad! It's good to still see folks with enthusiasm for writing new El-Hazard fanfic. I particularly enjoyed Haruhi's encounter with Groucho, and his total inability to resist her rapacious advances. XD
If I had any complaint, it would be that your story seems to be relying a bit too much on recycled humor. You have Mikuru doing the waitress gig in the desert, just like Nanami. You had Kyon encounter the priestesses in the hot springs, just like Makoto. The latter case was particularly awkward, as Kyon's incaution just didn't seem terribly in-character for him. Barging past guards and leaping head-first into who-knows-what seems more Haruhi's style than Kyon's!
All complaints aside, it seems to be a pretty solid story so far and I look forward to seeing more. Let us know when you update!
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Spanner - Thanks for the feedback! "Slice of life"/comedy moments is a weakness of mine that I have to work on a bit - hence the recycled humor. Maybe I'll get better at that over time - thankfully the Haruhi/Groucho scene came across as funny at least; I'm glad that you enjoyed it!
I'll keep the criticisms in mind, especially as far as Kyon is concerned. I'll put up another link to the story here after I update - I hope to have the next Chapter done sometime this weekend.
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Heh, very amusing. It's nice to see a new El Hazard crossover, especially with Suzumiya Haruhi since that series seems particularly well-suited for this. Anyway, the writing's pretty good and I'm really enjoying the humor. The first-person narrative took me by surprise at first, but it's a good way to incorporate Kyon's trademark sarcasm into the story and I think it's paying off. The descriptions are a bit lacking, but since you seem to be aiming this at people with some familiarity with both settings that's not necessarily a bad thing and it gives you more time to work on the dialogue. In my opinion, your best scene so far is Haruhi's encounter with the Bugrom Empire. You definitely seemed to nail her personality, and I'm tempted to say that she's probably going to enjoy every minute of her imprisonment in this strange, alien world. Heh. Regardless, I echo Spanner's criticism, and overall I think you're off to a good start. Thanks for sharing.
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Rowan - Thanks a lot! :) Haruhi Suzumiya is my favorite character from her own anime, and Katsuhiko Jinnai is my favorite El Hazard character... so the scenes with both of them in it will probably be my best work. ;D
It's certainly the scenes I enjoy writing the most.
Here's an update!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068
Just scroll down to where "Chapter 2 - The Alliance of Haruhi Suzumiya" begins.
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Rowan - Thanks a lot! :) Haruhi Suzumiya is my favorite character from her own anime, and Katsuhiko Jinnai is my favorite El Hazard character... so the scenes with both of them in it will probably be my best work. ;D
It's certainly the scenes I enjoy writing the most.
Here's an update!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068
Just scroll down to where "Chapter 2 - The Alliance of Haruhi Suzumiya" begins.
All right! I checked out chapter two. The interactions between Jinnai and Haruhi continue to be quite hilarious. Two individuals with a remarkable talent for hearing only what they want to hear... pair them off, and watch them come to some amazing conclusions! I thought that Groucho's... attraction to Haruhi was a bit weird at first - but then again, given that Queen Diva is a rather sexy babe herself, it's certainly possible that Bugrom tastes in females may run in that direction.
The interactions with the Roshtaria crowd were a bit weaker, I'm afraid. I was a little confused as to why Kyon and Itsuki were asking about things like schools and sightseeing, as though they were visiting tourists. One would think that their priority would be to locate their missing members! Kyon would be especially worried about Mikuru, since he tends to regard her as a very fragile and delicate girl.
Speaking of Mikuru, Nanami's mentioning her experience as a waitress and how that fate might have befallen one of their companions seemed WAY too convenient. Given how randomly the group was scattered, it's quite a leap of deduction to guess that anyone else would have landed in the desert, let alone that they'd wind up working as a waitress. If you meant that as a plot hook to give our heroes someplace to start looking... well, I feel it could have been done better.
On the topic of sightseeing... You seemed to be a little overcautious in adding your own touches to the world of El-Hazard. It's strange to assume, for instance, that the Roshtarian Acadamy is the only school in El-Hazard! When Kyon asked about places of learning, Dr. Schtalubaugh should have been able to rattle off several, even if none are quite as majestic as the Academy. The Alliance is made of many allied nations, and surely they don't all send every student to Roshtaria to learn!
It actually made me chuckle, too, when the Priestesses referred to their own Alma Mater as "that place where we priestesses go to train". If you don't have a name, make one up! El-Hazard is a huge and wonderful place, and the OAV only touched on a scant handful of the continent. Don't be afraid to make up your own places of interest, or to fill out details that the OAV left out. Go beyond just the people and places mentioned in the show!
It seems a little strange that the Roshtarian group hasn't asked about any strange powers that Kyon and Itsuki might have developed. To date, every Earthling that's come to El-Hazard has recieved a special power of some kind. While it doesn't necessarily follow that the Haruhi group will also get powers (they came to El-Hazard in a different manner than Makoto's group, after all), the Roshtarians should certainly suspect that such powers could exist!
It was nice to see Fatora and Alielle introduced to the group. It was particularly interesting to see that Kyon seems to have taken a shine to her, in spite of her misandronistic ways (I guess Kyon is so used to being abused by domineering women that Fatora doesn't seem so bad in retrospect). I kind of hope to see this develop further - though it's kind of hard to imagine Fatora actually warming up to Kyon. I shudder to imagine what will happen once Fatora meets Mikuru... Poor Mikuru!
As for the close of the chapter, in which the Shadow Tribemen get their hands on Yuki, whose data has been reconfigured to resemble a Demon God's... I'm cautiously optimistic. It's potentially an interesting twist, but there are many ways it could be poorly handled. Try not to have Yuki's new role too closely match Ifurita's!
All in all, another great chapter! Your primary weakness seems to be in handling the good guys, as I haven't really found any flaws with the sections dealing with the Bugrom or the Shadow Tribe. I don't know if it's because you have a better feel for the villians, or if those are the sections that you simply enjoy writing more (making the good guy sections a "necessary evil", in a way). You also seem to be a bit timid in developing and expanding the world of El-Hazard, and stick too closely to the people and places referenced in the show. Once you shore up those deficiencies this will be a solid piece of fanfiction.
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Ok... that's a nice lengthy reply! Thank you for it. Give me a second to respond to it all. :)
All right! I checked out chapter two. The interactions between Jinnai and Haruhi continue to be quite hilarious. Two individuals with a remarkable talent for hearing only what they want to hear... pair them off, and watch them come to some amazing conclusions! I thought that Groucho's... attraction to Haruhi was a bit weird at first - but then again, given that Queen Diva is a rather sexy babe herself, it's certainly possible that Bugrom tastes in females may run in that direction.
Well, in Alternate World, Groucho commented to Jinnai that he was glad that Jinnai was "slender" again. I personally took that to mean that Groucho has some appreciation for the human form. In the case of Jinnai, it's simply being happy that his boss and buddy is back in good shape - maybe with a female human, this appreciation can go a bit father.
That, and having an alien liking Haruhi simply opens up more avenues for humor and exploring Haruhi's obsession with aliens. However, I'm not yet decided yet how far I'll go with that - it's not likely I'll make it all that serious; more like light touches here on out.
The interactions with the Roshtaria crowd were a bit weaker, I'm afraid. I was a little confused as to why Kyon and Itsuki were asking about things like schools and sightseeing, as though they were visiting tourists. One would think that their priority would be to locate their missing members! Kyon would be especially worried about Mikuru, since he tends to regard her as a very fragile and delicate girl.
In retrospect, I probably should have had them asking the Three Priestesses about their missing members right off the bat. Still, I had them ask about schools and sightseeing, in part, to show that they're "trying to get the lay of the land", in order to better prepare themselves for the searching that they have to do coming ahead. This struck me as something Kyon and Koizumi would want to do before rushing headlong into a search - going back to your own Kyon being the cautious and prepared one point that you made. ;)
Speaking of Mikuru, Nanami's mentioning her experience as a waitress and how that fate might have befallen one of their companions seemed WAY too convenient. Given how randomly the group was scattered, it's quite a leap of deduction to guess that anyone else would have landed in the desert, let alone that they'd wind up working as a waitress. If you meant that as a plot hook to give our heroes someplace to start looking... well, I feel it could have been done better.
My thinking with Nanami is that she's the cautious and prudent, but also somewhat cynical, one. Sort of a "Murphy's Law" character that's always preparing for the worst. Since she would consider what befell herself to be pretty bad, I could see her pointing out to the other humans from back home that the same thing may have befallen their friends.
On the topic of sightseeing... You seemed to be a little overcautious in adding your own touches to the world of El-Hazard. It's strange to assume, for instance, that the Roshtarian Acadamy is the only school in El-Hazard! When Kyon asked about places of learning, Dr. Schtalubaugh should have been able to rattle off several, even if none are quite as majestic as the Academy. The Alliance is made of many allied nations, and surely they don't all send every student to Roshtaria to learn!
It actually made me chuckle, too, when the Priestesses referred to their own Alma Mater as "that place where we priestesses go to train". If you don't have a name, make one up! El-Hazard is a huge and wonderful place, and the OAV only touched on a scant handful of the continent. Don't be afraid to make up your own places of interest, or to fill out details that the OAV left out. Go beyond just the people and places mentioned in the show!
Ok... I see what you're saying here. I was a bit worried that I'd mess up a place name, or contradict a piece of canon, that I had forgotten. Also, I wanted to "feed Kyon's snarkiness" - give him things to get legitimately displeased with, so to speak (another reviewer on a separate board felt that I didn't display his snarkiness enough in Chapter 1).
Still, I'll try to be more imaginative in the future.
It seems a little strange that the Roshtarian group hasn't asked about any strange powers that Kyon and Itsuki might have developed.
Don't worry. I'll be getting to that. It'll be discussed on the plane ride (is there a name for that flying/sailing vessel that was used in the anime, by the way? - if not, I probably should invent one) towards Durasland.
To date, every Earthling that's come to El-Hazard has recieved a special power of some kind. While it doesn't necessarily follow that the Haruhi group will also get powers (they came to El-Hazard in a different manner than Makoto's group, after all), the Roshtarians should certainly suspect that such powers could exist!
Good point.
It was nice to see Fatora and Alielle introduced to the group. It was particularly interesting to see that Kyon seems to have taken a shine to her, in spite of her misandronistic ways (I guess Kyon is so used to being abused by domineering women that Fatora doesn't seem so bad in retrospect). I kind of hope to see this develop further - though it's kind of hard to imagine Fatora actually warming up to Kyon. I shudder to imagine what will happen once Fatora meets Mikuru... Poor Mikuru!
As for the close of the chapter, in which the Shadow Tribemen get their hands on Yuki, whose data has been reconfigured to resemble a Demon God's... I'm cautiously optimistic. It's potentially an interesting twist, but there are many ways it could be poorly handled. Try not to have Yuki's new role too closely match Ifurita's!
I'll keep that in mind.
All in all, another great chapter! Your primary weakness seems to be in handling the good guys, as I haven't really found any flaws with the sections dealing with the Bugrom or the Shadow Tribe. I don't know if it's because you have a better feel for the villians, or if those are the sections that you simply enjoy writing more (making the good guy sections a "necessary evil", in a way).
You're very perceptive - it's pretty much both those things, for me. Haruhi and the El Hazard villains are character types that I actually find easy to write. The protagonists are a bit trickier because they don't lend themselves to the sort of over-the-top dialogue and drama that Haruhi and the El Hazard villains lend themselves to (and which I enjoy writing).
So... I have to admit that I've been playing it safe with the protagonist parts; just trying to get the characterization right so it doesn't take away from the broader fanfic, but basically letting Haruhi/Jinnai carry the fanfic.
I'll be more adventurous with the protagonists in the future, though - I think I've done an Ok job with their characterization so far, so hopefully I can afford to experiment a bit more with them the rest of the way.
You also seem to be a bit timid in developing and expanding the world of El-Hazard, and stick too closely to the people and places referenced in the show. Once you shore up those deficiencies this will be a solid piece of fanfiction.
Ok, I'll keep that all in mind. I should have Chapter 3 sometime between this evening, and Wednesday - I hope you like it! Thanks for following the fic so far, and also thanks for the feedback. It's been very helpful.
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And Chapter 3 is complete! :
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068
Just scroll down to where "Chapter 3 - The First Night of Haruhi Suzumiya" begins.
Big thanks to Spanner for really inspiring me with the earlier constructive criticism. It gave me a lot of great ideas for the protagonist scenes!
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And Chapter 3 is complete! :
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068
Just scroll down to where "Chapter 3 - The First Night of Haruhi Suzumiya" begins.
Big thanks to Spanner for really inspiring me with the earlier constructive criticism. It gave me a lot of great ideas for the protagonist scenes!
And... read it!
All right, before I go into the main review, I thought I'd mention something. You seem to be trying a little too hard to please your reviewers. Remember that our critiques are intented to help you improve your writing, not a demand for you to change what you're doing!
That said, I've noticed that you seem to go to great lengths to try to "cover up" things that I've pointed out as being iffy in previous chapters. For example:
Chapter 1: Kyon: Outta the way! *barges past guards, leaps into the Priestess's springs*
Spanner's comments: Kyon seems a bit impulsive here...
Chapter 2: Kyon: Oh, sorry about that. I'm usually not so impulsive, but, y'know, I was thirsy 'n all...
or this:
Chapter 2: Afura: Schools? Well, there's the royal academy... and that place where we priestesses train. That's pretty much it!
Spanner's comments: What, only two schools on the entire continent?
Chapter 3: Makoto: Oh, we thought you meant non-destroyed schools! Oh, we've got OODLES of schools if you include the ones the Bugrom burned down. Those darned Bugrom! In fact, we spend a lot of time repairing schools.
Fujisawa: Hey, I have an idea! Let's go repair some schools right now!
Everyone: Yay!
I was being a little silly there, but I hope you see what I'm getting at. It's not a good idea to use our criticism to try to paint over your mistakes.
Writing sections in chapters to "explain away" mistakes in previous chapters is like turning a spotlight on those mistakes. Readers that might have missed or chosen to forgive those mistakes suddenly have their faces shoved into them, making them impossible to ignore.
Instead, you should use our criticism to improve your work in the future - or if you really strongly agree with the criticism, you can consider going back and rewriting sections of previous chapters. Just because a chapter is posted doesn't mean that it's set in stone!
Okay, with all that said, here's my impressions of chapter 3:
The Bugrom sections continue to please, and the interactions between Haruhi and Jinnai are a lot of fun. Haruhi's new shape-changing abilities are cool (I'd love to see fanart of Bugrom Queen Haruhi XD). It'll be interesting to see just how extensive they are (can she only change into a Bugrom? Can she change into any type of creature? Can she imitate other people? Or change into non-living objects? etc), and how she plans to use them. I must say that Queen Diva seemed a bit blase about the idea that Haruhi might be the new Bugrom Queen. She doesn't feel threatened by that? Then again, Diva's always been a pretty passive character, caving into Jinnai's desires all the time as she does.
The section with Mikuru was very well-written! I think you captured her personality perfectly, as someone who always tries her best but is hampered by her timidity and the fact that she's not exactly the sharpest wheel of cheddar in the dairy. Hang in there, Mikuru!
There were some clear improvements in the "good guy" sections this time around. Kyon is definitely behaving more Kyon-like. I was smiling broadly at the section where Kyon was wrestling internally between the desire to protect Mikuru's virtue from Fatora and the inability to lie about her wondrous beauty. That's pure Kyon, right there! For all his eloquence about defending the innocent and helpless girl, when it actually comes down to protecting her he never seems to manage to pull it off, does he? Itsuki's philosophical monologue was nice to see as well.
It was good to see a little more creativity in regards to the geography and terminology of El-Hazard, but given how many names and terms were spouted off in such a small space, I worry a bit that you might be overcorrecting.
The introduction of Kyon's and Itsuki's El-Hazard powers seemed a bit sudden, and felt a bit like the "please the reviewers" stuff I mentioned above. Still, now that they're here, I do find them to be satisfactory. Kyon's magnetic powers have some interesting potential, and Itsuki's powers are actually what I'd privately predicted they'd be: the ability to use his esper abilities outside of Closed Space.
The story's moving along swimmingly, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing more. Keep writing!
-Aaron
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I agree with most of what Spanner said, though I'm not bothered by Diva's lack of concern over Haruhi's new appearance. At the time she was probably too overwhelmed with emotion because of the miraculous return of the lost Bugrom to care, and I imagine that as the Bugrom Queen she's pretty confident of her position and has powers and specialized knowledge to back it up. The irony of Jinnai proclaiming that God is on his side was fantastic, by the way, considering that Haruhi _is_ a god, and it's interesting to see Haruhi's powers playing out in El-Hazard. Because of what she is it's questionable whether traveling to this new world would actually have an effect on her, but now that Jinnai has raised the possibility of her developing shapeshifting powers her own divine powers can kick in and make that a reality even if it wasn't true without anyone being the wiser.
And speaking of powers, Koizumi the Esper and Yuki the Demon God? Heh, if this pattern continues Mikuru's probably going to manifest either time manipulation abilities (a great asset for a waitress!) or an actual Mikuru Beam, though I wonder if even that would be enough to fend off Fatora and Alliele. Poor, poor Mikuru and her gift of incredible cuteness. I'm not sure how to feel about Kyon's new magnetic powers yet other than that they might come in handy when he encounters Yuki again. I kind of assumed that he'd pull a Makoto and not discover his new superhuman ability(ies) until a do or die moment, but what you've done here has potential.
As for the actual writing, the prose is still a bit awkward in places but your enthusiasm clearly shows and infuses the story with a type of excited energy. The same goes for the dialogue. Every now and then the wording seems off for a character, but overall it's amusing enough that I hardly care. Fujisawa's histrionics and Koizumi's philosophical speech about there being good and evil in everyone were probably the best spoken parts for the "heroes," while Jinnai and Haruhi continue to have some of the best conversations. It could be entertaining to see whether those two will have positive or negative effects on each other since both are megalomaniacs in their own fashions but they also have their better sides, as Kyon and Wanderers Ifurita show. I'm of a mixed mind about understanding what the Bugrom are saying, though. It was used to good effect in this chapter, but part of their charm has been trying to figure out what they mean. If you're going to keep translating their communications, you're faced with the task of making this understanding add rather than take something away from the Bugrom. Anyway, thanks again for sharing and good luck with your writing.
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Spanner and rowan - Thanks a lot!
Spanner - your critique over how I tried to fix my issue with the schools was simply hilarious! ;D I laughed loudly from reading your great and funny take on it.
I see your point - refinement over correction. With that in mind, I went back and altered secordias to a smaller distance in order to make the geography work in Chapter 4 (i.e. searching for Mikuru 10 miles from the spatial anomaly makes sense - not so much with 200 miles though ^^; Don't think Mikuru can walk 200 miles in a day). I point this out to you because you're too sharp to miss it. ;)
Now, just before you point it out - I did go somewhere in Chapter 4 that may make it seem like I was responding to one of your suggestions/corrections, but please believe me when I say that I had it planned out from the beginning. You'll probably guess what I'm referring to here once you read Chapter 4. Anyway, thanks again for your great advice. It's made me pay a bit more careful attention to continuity and people making sensible in-character decisions.
Rowan - I'm glad you liked the irony on the "God is on my side!" line. It was indeed intended to have that affect.
I'm going to go ahead and explain why I gave Kyon magnetic powers. Kyon tends to attract all sorts of wonderment and trouble in his own anime - ergo, giving him magnetic powers seemed appropriate given his nature here. ;)
Excellent observations on Haruhi in general - you're getting exactly where I'm going with her there.
Your review hits it on the money, too - I feel pretty much the same way; every now and then a desired plot movement/character reaction requires me to go just a touch off of the broken characterization path, but I think that it'll be worth it in the long run.
I understand your point with the Bugrom. I kind of wanted to give a grander sense of what Jinnai is to the Bugrom to emphasize its impact on Haruhi. Also, I'm setting up Haruhi as the main point of reference (aside from Kyon the Narrator) for the story. Hence, we start hearing the Bugrom translated once Haruhi does. Also, Groucho has a very important role to play later on that requires translation. I've already planned an important scene with him - but that's all I'll say or I'll spoil it too much.
Well, chapters 4 and 5 are now up!:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=2
I look forward to knowing what you and Spanner think of it! One question by the way - is my writing pace for this good so far, you think? Am I going too fast, too slow, or just right? Is it a good pace to be reading it at (a 12 to 16 computer pages chapter once every few days)?
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I took a look at chapters four and five. I'm afraid this will likely be my last review for a while; I'm going on vacation starting next week, and won't have ready Internet access for much of that time.
Anyway these chapters introduced another stroke of fanfiction brilliance: SOS MAN! Again, it's so perfectly Haruhi for her to insist on such a thing, and so perfectly Jinnai for him to be so taken aback by it. I was intensely amused to see how he eventually settled into the role, though, and look forward to more amazing exploits of SOS Man!
Haruhi becoming Bugrom Queen was an interesting touch. (I presume that's the element that you meant when you said you had it planned all along, and it wasn't a "correction"?) It flowed very well, and it was an excellent explanation for Diva's composure at how enthusastic her Bugrom subjects were about Haruhi's transformation. Diva's revelation that there was more to the prophesy that she shared with Jinnai was an interesting touch. It's all too easy to believe that Diva would have kept the prophesy of the great setback from Jinnai when she saw how well he was doing.
I chuckled when Diva held Haruhi back from adventuring with Jinnai due to her new duties as Bugrom Queen. It seems that her new job is not all fun and adventure, as she thought it would be! I wonder how long Haruhi's enthusiasm will hold out once she learns she has to deal with a lot of boring stuff, too.
I'm also quite interested as to how seriously you're taking this Bugrom prophesy stuff. If it really is as accurate as you're making it out to be, does that mean that the Bugrom will eventually rise to glory? And if so, just what exactly will that mean for the Allied Nations?
Anyway, back to the Roshtarians. Fatora seems to be getting along with Kyon about as well as a person with her personality possibly could. The dynamics between these two presents an interesting take on Fatora that I don't think anyone previously has even attempted. Heck, the very idea of her even forming friendships seems a bit beyond the pale. From what we've seen of Fatora, she seems to divide the world population into four categories: Big Sister, Alielle, sexual conquests, and slaves. Unlike most folks in the slave category, she doesn't seem quite as inclined to treat Kyon like dirt. Maybe his submissive personality appeals to her? Kyon's sort of nervously half-hearted enthusasm about her chumminess is perfect as well.
I thought it was a little too convenient that Makoto correctly guessed so many things about Yuki just by a picture of her, but I suppose that's okay since Yuki's character design was pretty much created to emphasize those stereotypes - a cute, glasses-wearing geek girl to appeal to the sizable viewer demographic that goes for that kind of thing. It seems that Makoto himself is part of that demographic...
Fatora's and Alielle's gushing over the sexy pictures of Mikuri and Haruhi was to be expected. It seems a bit strange that Itsuki would choose such... provacative pictures to show to the group when he could have just showed them the normal pictures and left it at that. Then again, he's kind of a strange guy. It's probably best for the sake of Kyon's composure that there was no need for Itsuki to show of his undoubtedly large and embarrassing Kyon picture collection. ;)
Something that I didn't really notice until the Bugrom's attack on the three priestesses was that you avoided a very common difficulty in fanfiction (and, indeed, even in the canon): you avoided bringing the whole friggin' cast along on the adventure! This is quite commendable, as a large cast is awkward and usually the reasons for them all tagging along are contrived or nonexistant. A group of seven is much more managable, and you were able to pay proper respect for the left-out cast through cameos like this one. Kudos!
And now, the Shadow Tribe. Unlike the Roshtarians' somewhat-hard-to-swallow powers of perception, the conclusions they drew about Haruhi were presented pretty logically. The reemergence of Galus as Mecha-Galus was a bit comic-booky, I'll admit, but this entire fanfiction is written in a distinctly comic-booky manner, with significant nouns and verbs italicized for no apparent reason. So it is, perhaps, forgivable.
I was a bit curious about Yuki's "powers of invisibility". Are those the powers she gained as a human travelling to El-Hazard? Does this mean that Yuki's human body qualified to grant her the power, even though her data reconfigured itself to demon god afterwards? Or are these invisibility powers something the Shadow Tribe gave her when the scientists were tinkering with her?
Yuki's amnesia is a good angle to take with her. Normally, she's a bit of a tough character to write since her reality-altering powers and her link to the Integrated Data Entity gives her so very much deus-ex-machina potential. With her knowledge of herself and others so limited, it gives a lot of leeway in granting her some interesting character development.
Lastly, it seems that you have something in the works with Mikuru and the impending visit of the Duroslandian noble. I'm curious to see how that plays out!
As you can see, I had very little to actually complain about this time - your writing is definitely shaping up! I leave you now with a typo to fix: "ring Kyon's neck" in Chapter 4 should be "wring Kyon's neck".
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I took a look at chapters four and five. I'm afraid this will likely be my last review for a while; I'm going on vacation starting next week, and won't have ready Internet access for much of that time.
Anyway these chapters introduced another stroke of fanfiction brilliance: SOS MAN! Again, it's so perfectly Haruhi for her to insist on such a thing, and so perfectly Jinnai for him to be so taken aback by it. I was intensely amused to see how he eventually settled into the role, though, and look forward to more amazing exploits of SOS Man!
Haruhi becoming Bugrom Queen was an interesting touch. (I presume that's the element that you meant when you said you had it planned all along, and it wasn't a "correction"?) It flowed very well, and it was an excellent explanation for Diva's composure at how enthusastic her Bugrom subjects were about Haruhi's transformation. Diva's revelation that there was more to the prophesy that she shared with Jinnai was an interesting touch. It's all too easy to believe that Diva would have kept the prophesy of the great setback from Jinnai when she saw how well he was doing.
I chuckled when Diva held Haruhi back from adventuring with Jinnai due to her new duties as Bugrom Queen. It seems that her new job is not all fun and adventure, as she thought it would be! I wonder how long Haruhi's enthusiasm will hold out once she learns she has to deal with a lot of boring stuff, too.
I'm also quite interested as to how seriously you're taking this Bugrom prophesy stuff. If it really is as accurate as you're making it out to be, does that mean that the Bugrom will eventually rise to glory? And if so, just what exactly will that mean for the Allied Nations?
Anyway, back to the Roshtarians. Fatora seems to be getting along with Kyon about as well as a person with her personality possibly could. The dynamics between these two presents an interesting take on Fatora that I don't think anyone previously has even attempted. Heck, the very idea of her even forming friendships seems a bit beyond the pale. From what we've seen of Fatora, she seems to divide the world population into four categories: Big Sister, Alielle, sexual conquests, and slaves. Unlike most folks in the slave category, she doesn't seem quite as inclined to treat Kyon like dirt. Maybe his submissive personality appeals to her? Kyon's sort of nervously half-hearted enthusasm about her chumminess is perfect as well.
I thought it was a little too convenient that Makoto correctly guessed so many things about Yuki just by a picture of her, but I suppose that's okay since Yuki's character design was pretty much created to emphasize those stereotypes - a cute, glasses-wearing geek girl to appeal to the sizable viewer demographic that goes for that kind of thing. It seems that Makoto himself is part of that demographic...
Fatora's and Alielle's gushing over the sexy pictures of Mikuri and Haruhi was to be expected. It seems a bit strange that Itsuki would choose such... provacative pictures to show to the group when he could have just showed them the normal pictures and left it at that. Then again, he's kind of a strange guy. It's probably best for the sake of Kyon's composure that there was no need for Itsuki to show of his undoubtedly large and embarrassing Kyon picture collection. ;)
Something that I didn't really notice until the Bugrom's attack on the three priestesses was that you avoided a very common difficulty in fanfiction (and, indeed, even in the canon): you avoided bringing the whole friggin' cast along on the adventure! This is quite commendable, as a large cast is awkward and usually the reasons for them all tagging along are contrived or nonexistant. A group of seven is much more managable, and you were able to pay proper respect for the left-out cast through cameos like this one. Kudos!
And now, the Shadow Tribe. Unlike the Roshtarians' somewhat-hard-to-swallow powers of perception, the conclusions they drew about Haruhi were presented pretty logically. The reemergence of Galus as Mecha-Galus was a bit comic-booky, I'll admit, but this entire fanfiction is written in a distinctly comic-booky manner, with significant nouns and verbs italicized for no apparent reason. So it is, perhaps, forgivable.
I was a bit curious about Yuki's "powers of invisibility". Are those the powers she gained as a human travelling to El-Hazard? Does this mean that Yuki's human body qualified to grant her the power, even though her data reconfigured itself to demon god afterwards? Or are these invisibility powers something the Shadow Tribe gave her when the scientists were tinkering with her?
Yuki's amnesia is a good angle to take with her. Normally, she's a bit of a tough character to write since her reality-altering powers and her link to the Integrated Data Entity gives her so very much deus-ex-machina potential. With her knowledge of herself and others so limited, it gives a lot of leeway in granting her some interesting character development.
Lastly, it seems that you have something in the works with Mikuru and the impending visit of the Duroslandian noble. I'm curious to see how that plays out!
As you can see, I had very little to actually complain about this time - your writing is definitely shaping up! I leave you now with a typo to fix: "ring Kyon's neck" in Chapter 4 should be "wring Kyon's neck".
Thanks a lot, Spanner! I'm really glad you liked my SOS Man idea. And yes, Haruhi becoming Bugrom Queen was the element that I was refering to.
I have to admit that I was a big comic book fan growing up - a Superman fan as you can probably guess. ;) In fact, one of the reasons why I loved El Hazard is how it appealed to the comic book fan in me (Jinnai being like the perfect mixture of Lex Luthor and the Joker to me; Fujisawa being like a cool plains-clothes Superman; the Three Priestesses and Ifurita having costumes like what a Justice League member would wear).
I've tried to add some nice little touches from other shows that I like (Char Aznable's helmet, SOS Man, Mecha-Galus, Nanoha Inverse and her Raging Heart sniping rifle).
One thing I should point out - I'm writing this with the idea being to convey English dub voices to the audience - for example, Bob Marx and Wendee Lee in the case of Jinnai and Haruhi. All of the added emphasis I put on their lines coincides with how I imagine Bob Marx and Wendee Lee themselves to emphasize certain parts of lines if they were playing this out as a script.
The fanfic hence might sound a bit off for more sub-centric fans.
Thanks for really appreciating all the little touches - particularly my handling of group numbers and cameos. My view is that seven characters (all on the same side) actively talking to one another is enough - more than that, and somebody gets lost in the crowd.
I'm glad you like the Fatora/Kyon friendship of sorts and their contest over Mikuru. I tend to see Fatora and Kyon the way you do, and hence I think that they'd naturally find each other comfortable.
I also appreciate the typo correction. Well... I hope that you have a good vacation! By the time you get back, I might have a few more chapters done. :)
You've given me enough great reviews that I have a good idea of where to go from here - you approving of SOS Man was particularly important, actually.
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Not a fanfic update (though I hope to have another chapter done soon), but rather a YouTube video I made to promote the fanfic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFJhDvvBxDY&feature=channel_page
I think that my fellow El Hazard fans here might find it entertaining. ;) :)
Edit: But now I have a fanfic update to make as well! You can find it here: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=2
Just scroll down to where Chapter 6 begins if you're already through the previous chapters.
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Apologies for the lack of recent feedback on my part. I've been in the process for the past week of moving into my brother's house for the summer and starting an internship so I've been pretty preoccupied. I'll try to read the newest update and write some C&C soon, but in the meantime let me commend you on the trailer. The use of Haruhi's "ordinary" soliloquy followed by the far from ordinary Jinnai was well-timed and quite effective, and I really like the choice of music. It really is quite a good way to get pumped before reading this. ^_^V
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Apologies for the lack of recent feedback on my part. I've been in the process for the past week of moving into my brother's house for the summer and starting an internship so I've been pretty preoccupied. I'll try to read the newest update and write some C&C soon, but in the meantime let me commend you on the trailer. The use of Haruhi's "ordinary" soliloquy followed by the far from ordinary Jinnai was well-timed and quite effective, and I really like the choice of music. It really is quite a good way to get pumped before reading this. ^_^V
I'm glad that you liked it! I'm glad you liked the Haruhi soliloquy followed by Jinnai laughing opening - I felt it made for a nice, dramatic opening that explained, in a nutshell, just why Haruhi was allying with Jinnai (not that she's fully aware of exactly what he's doing, mind you - not yet anyway). I wanted epic music for this (so Haruhi's music was out of the question), but I wanted something a bit less... classical/happy and upbeat than the various El Hazard opening scores. Hence, I used the musical score from the recent Batman movie. ;)
I eagerly look forward to your review of Chapters 4 through 7 (Edit: Chapter 7 just finished today)! No problem on the late review - I know how 'real life' can be taxing some times.
A separate note - I've commissioned an artist over on DeviantArt to draw a Bugrom Queen Haruhi for me. Here's his sketch work thus far...
http://oceansama.deviantart.com/art/Sample-for-GhostRoswell-123305305
He said he should have this picture fully inked and colored in about a week and a half. :)
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Heh, this story certainly continues to entertain. The line about Haruhi beginning to feel like a second character was incredibly amusing considering the context and everything she's dragged the SOS Brigade through, and Haruhi and Jinnai's interactions and continued convenient misinterpretation of each other's words are one of the highlights of the tale. The adventures of the other main characters are beginning to feel more interesting too, though that might be helped by your excellent work with Alliele and Fatora. Those two don't rank highly on my list of favorite El-Hazard characters, but you're doing such an utterly fantastic job with their dialogue that I've actually enjoyed their inclusion. Nanami's slight jealousy at Makoto's interest in Yuki was a nice touch too.
I'm still not entirely sure what to think of SOS Man. It's funny at the moment but could quickly grow old, and the image of Jinnai in a "superhero" costume is somewhat odd considering of all the Earthlings he's the one who's clung to the Shinonome school uniform the longest. It's given him some great lines, though, and seems to be edging him slightly towards a higher level of behavior which fits in with this "redemption" angle you've introduced. Koizumi's earlier musings on good and evil was a nice foreshadowing of this, and while Jinnai becoming a "good guy" of sorts is unlikely it isn't impossible since he does have some positive traits, and if TV Ifurita could have a good influence on him in The Wanderers it's certainly possible that Haruhi could have a similar effect here. And Jinnai is also crazy and petty enough that if someone convinces him that bringing peace to El-Hazard is the perfect way to one-up Makoto he might actually do it. ("Mwhagwaha! You might have saved the world once, Mizuhara, but I've saved it and ended thousands of years of war! Beat that! MwahahaHAHAHAHA! ^_^V ) The fistfight between the two of them was well depicted too.
The scenes with Mikuru were all right. Her meekness bothered me, but that's an issue I have with the character herself and not your writing. And the mental image of her being chased by the lascivious duo of Fatora and Alliele was rather amusing. The Saturn brothers and Prince Randorm confused me a bit, though. I'm not sure whether they're supposed to be cameos or original characters.
Anyway, in addition to everything I've written above I want to reiterate that I'm enjoying reading this, but there are also a few criticisms I want to make. First, the scenes with the Phantom Tribe seem strikingly...well, bland compared to the other parts of the story. Nahato and Galus come across as rather one-dimensional and not in an amusing, over-the-top way, and their dialogue isn't terribly exciting either. There's a lack of dynamism where they're concerned that's in sharp contrast to the interactions between the other groups. As for Nanoha Inverse, I'm of two minds about her. When I first saw the name I thought of Nanoha Takamachi and Lina Inverse, and an amalgam between the two of them is a...bizarre mental image, to say the least, and while she seems to have been inspired in part by Lyrical Nanoha she also isn't acting at all like her namesake and that's causing a sense of incongruity for me. I'm really not sure what to make of her yet.
Also, much as I like your dialogue, it can be a bit wordy at times. For example, when you had Miz say, "Still...meeting up with Makoto and the others is a good idea. I'll place the three of us within a restorative air bubble within a ten foot tall steady stream of water. That stream will then carry us to wherever Makoto is!" I was left wondering if she'd actually say something like that. It sounds more like a detailed description that would fit better in the narrative than in a conversation. Something more like "Still...meeting up with Makoto and the others is a good idea. I'll place the three of us within a restorative air bubble and we can use that to reach Makoto," with the part about the ten foot tall steady stream of water included in the text rather than the quote might sound more natural. You don't need to explain and describe everything in conversation.
The next thing I want to add is more of a piece of advice than a criticism, but with the subplots beginning to converge try to be careful about executing the story in a plausible manner. As previously stated, going off the beaten characterization path every now and then is understandable, but go too far and it just seems unrealistic. For example, for Koizumi's plan to try to negotiate with Jinnai it seems that he thinks it would be best if he and Kyon went by themselves, but considering that those two are complete strangers in an alien world it seems highly unlikely to me that Fujisawa and Makoto (being the responsible adult and compassionate guy, respectively) would let them go alone. I'm not sure what your plans are, but it would probably make sense to throw either Alliele or someone else into their party as a guide.
Regardless, good job overall and I'm really impressed by the speed and length of your updates. Don't be afraid to take more time if you want it, though. I like the polished new chapters more than I dislike the wait between them.
Oh, and out of curiosity, have you explained yet how the SOS Brigade traveled to El-Hazard? I might've missed something while reading, but as far as I can tell you haven't shown how their trip to Shinonome High to investigate the ruins ended up teleporting them to another dimension. If you haven't already, you might want to mention what set this adventure in motion.
P.S. Nice picture, by the way. Please give my compliments to the artist.
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Thanks for that awesome feedback, rowan! It's greatly appreciated, and I'm glad that you're finding the fanfic entertaining and enjoyable so far at least.
A few general points and responses...
1. Prince Randorm, Nanoha Inverse, and the Saturn Brothers are all original characters (unlike, say, Sasuke, which is simply the name I gave to the tiny bugrom that used to fly around Diva's ear in the actual canon). In longer fanfics, I tend to like to throw in a few original characters unless I'm working with a property just stuffed with loads of good secondary/one-shot characters (the El Hazard OVA simply wasn't long enough to have that, imo).
2. I thought long and hard about SOS Man. I certainly understand your reservations - it's a substantial shift for Katsuhiko's character. Still... I think that the pros to the change outweighed the cons. In addition to the pros that you and Spanner mentioned, I also like how it helps to juxtapose Haruhi and Jinnai a bit - i.e. Haruhi becomes more Bugrom Empire by becoming Bugrom Queen while Jinnai becomes more SOS Brigade by becoming SOS Man. It helps bind them together in their new found friendship a bit more.
I will say that Jinnai is not going to be talking constantly about truth, justice, and the bugrom way. I made his dialogue here a bit heavy in the Makoto fight/Groucho discussions to emphasize that, yes, SOS Man is effecting him psychologically - but with that accomplished now, most further SOS Man-esque dialogue will be subtle. Also, I may move him in and out of the SOS Man guise through out the fic.
3. I'm really glad you like my Alielle and Fatora work so much! I have been extra careful with their dialogue, I will admit. My thinking is that of everybody on the clear-cut protagonist side, they can most readily serve as "dynamic comedic relief", so that's where I've gone with them. Funny thing is that I'm not a big Alielle or Fatora fan myself - but they have distinctive personalities that lend themselves to good dialogue.
4. I hear your Shadow/Phantom Tribe comments loud and clear. I have to admit that in the El Hazard canon itself, I saw them as pretty straight-forward manipulative antagonists. Clever and shrewd, but not terribly interesting beyond their "incognito" status (which is largely gone for this fanfic, of course). Perhaps I'll rewatch some of their El Hazard OVA scenes to gain a greater appreciation for their characters. Maybe I'll include a special scene or two to give a touch more of a sympathetic flavor to Galus and Nahato.
5. I picked the name "Nanoha Inverse" for laughs, and to cast just that Nanoha/Lina fusion image you were referring to, I'll admit (well, that, and 'Nanoha' struck me as a good Shadow Tribe name given that they already have a 'Nahato'). But, yeah, I see your incongruency point. I'll try to address that in some way.
6. I'm basically writing Mikuru in-character, and using some naturally flowing comedic relief scenes for her. Truthfully, I'm not a big Mikuru fan myself - I see her as a very nice girl, but overly meek and prone to explosive crying or fright.
7. With Chapter 7 having a lot of exposition, I tried to fancy up the wording in a few places to keep it fresh and non-repetitive. Maybe I overdid it a bit. I'll try to keep dialogue a bit less detailed and technical in the future.
8. Thanks for the plausibility point. I'll seriously consider your Alielle-goes-with-Kyon/Koizumi suggestion.
9. I have a bit of a twist planned for the very end of the fanfic that will explain how Haruhi's SOS Brigade came to El Hazard. Explaining it now would ruin the surprise. ;) Nice suggestion on your part, all the same.
Well... again, thanks for the great review! I think I probably should reveal that I have major plot points for the fanfic planned out right to the finale now - allowing me to focus more on dialogue than deciding where to go next with the story.
Heh, this story certainly continues to entertain. The line about Haruhi beginning to feel like a second character was incredibly amusing considering the context and everything she's dragged the SOS Brigade through, and Haruhi and Jinnai's interactions and continued convenient misinterpretation of each other's words are one of the highlights of the tale. The adventures of the other main characters are beginning to feel more interesting too, though that might be helped by your excellent work with Alliele and Fatora. Those two don't rank highly on my list of favorite El-Hazard characters, but you're doing such an utterly fantastic job with their dialogue that I've actually enjoyed their inclusion. Nanami's slight jealousy at Makoto's interest in Yuki was a nice touch too.
I'm still not entirely sure what to think of SOS Man. It's funny at the moment but could quickly grow old, and the image of Jinnai in a "superhero" costume is somewhat odd considering of all the Earthlings he's the one who's clung to the Shinonome school uniform the longest. It's given him some great lines, though, and seems to be edging him slightly towards a higher level of behavior which fits in with this "redemption" angle you've introduced. Koizumi's earlier musings on good and evil was a nice foreshadowing of this, and while Jinnai becoming a "good guy" of sorts is unlikely it isn't impossible since he does have some positive traits, and if TV Ifurita could have a good influence on him in The Wanderers it's certainly possible that Haruhi could have a similar effect here. And Jinnai is also crazy and petty enough that if someone convinces him that bringing peace to El-Hazard is the perfect way to one-up Makoto he might actually do it. ("Mwhagwaha! You might have saved the world once, Mizuhara, but I've saved it and ended thousands of years of war! Beat that! MwahahaHAHAHAHA! ^_^V ) The fistfight between the two of them was well depicted too.
The scenes with Mikuru were all right. Her meekness bothered me, but that's an issue I have with the character herself and not your writing. And the mental image of her being chased by the lascivious duo of Fatora and Alliele was rather amusing. The Saturn brothers and Prince Randorm confused me a bit, though. I'm not sure whether they're supposed to be cameos or original characters.
Anyway, in addition to everything I've written above I want to reiterate that I'm enjoying reading this, but there are also a few criticisms I want to make. First, the scenes with the Phantom Tribe seem strikingly...well, bland compared to the other parts of the story. Nahato and Galus come across as rather one-dimensional and not in an amusing, over-the-top way, and their dialogue isn't terribly exciting either. There's a lack of dynamism where they're concerned that's in sharp contrast to the interactions between the other groups. As for Nanoha Inverse, I'm of two minds about her. When I first saw the name I thought of Nanoha Takamachi and Lina Inverse, and an amalgam between the two of them is a...bizarre mental image, to say the least, and while she seems to have been inspired in part by Lyrical Nanoha she also isn't acting at all like her namesake and that's causing a sense of incongruity for me. I'm really not sure what to make of her yet.
Also, much as I like your dialogue, it can be a bit wordy at times. For example, when you had Miz say, "Still...meeting up with Makoto and the others is a good idea. I'll place the three of us within a restorative air bubble within a ten foot tall steady stream of water. That stream will then carry us to wherever Makoto is!" I was left wondering if she'd actually say something like that. It sounds more like a detailed description that would fit better in the narrative than in a conversation. Something more like "Still...meeting up with Makoto and the others is a good idea. I'll place the three of us within a restorative air bubble and we can use that to reach Makoto," with the part about the ten foot tall steady stream of water included in the text rather than the quote might sound more natural. You don't need to explain and describe everything in conversation.
The next thing I want to add is more of a piece of advice than a criticism, but with the subplots beginning to converge try to be careful about executing the story in a plausible manner. As previously stated, going off the beaten characterization path every now and then is understandable, but go too far and it just seems unrealistic. For example, for Koizumi's plan to try to negotiate with Jinnai it seems that he thinks it would be best if he and Kyon went by themselves, but considering that those two are complete strangers in an alien world it seems highly unlikely to me that Fujisawa and Makoto (being the responsible adult and compassionate guy, respectively) would let them go alone. I'm not sure what your plans are, but it would probably make sense to throw either Alliele or someone else into their party as a guide.
Regardless, good job overall and I'm really impressed by the speed and length of your updates. Don't be afraid to take more time if you want it, though. I like the polished new chapters more than I dislike the wait between them.
Oh, and out of curiosity, have you explained yet how the SOS Brigade traveled to El-Hazard? I might've missed something while reading, but as far as I can tell you haven't shown how their trip to Shinonome High to investigate the ruins ended up teleporting them to another dimension. If you haven't already, you might want to mention what set this adventure in motion.
P.S. Nice picture, by the way. Please give my compliments to the artist.
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4. I hear your Shadow/Phantom Tribe comments loud and clear. I have to admit that in the El Hazard canon itself, I saw them as pretty straight-forward manipulative antagonists. Clever and shrewd, but not terribly interesting beyond their "incognito" status (which is largely gone for this fanfic, of course). Perhaps I'll rewatch some of their El Hazard OVA scenes to gain a greater appreciation for their characters. Maybe I'll include a special scene or two to give a touch more of a sympathetic flavor to Galus and Nahato.
Hm, I might be expecting too much from those two anyway. You're right that they were pretty much the "straightforward manipulative antagonists" in the OVA series, but Galus' presence and active role in Florestica helped make him and by extension the Phantom Tribe a more compelling faction. With him and Nahato sitting back, making sinister remarks, and occasionally issuing orders to underlings to ensure that things play out as they desire instead, the sense of danger and menace they once embodied seems somewhat understated. Perhaps exploring the dynamics between Galus and Nahato or the larger Phantom Tribe society as a whole might add some more depth to these segments of the story? Galus does seem to be acting a bit mysteriously and his return from the dead was amazingly convenient and sudden, so there's room for Nahato to begin having suspicions about his resurrected lord. And even if Galus is what he seems, there could be room for dissent within the Tribe. Nanoha, for example, seems to rather enjoy being alive and, while loyal and wanting revenge against the humans, might not be quite so certain about the desirability of destroying the entire world.
7. With Chapter 7 having a lot of exposition, I tried to fancy up the wording in a few places to keep it fresh and non-repetitive. Maybe I overdid it a bit. I'll try to keep dialogue a bit less detailed and technical in the future.
I probably made a bigger deal of that than I should have, anyway. The remark of Miz's I quoted was the one that stood out the most to me, and for the most part the rest of the dialogue felt more natural. It's just something I wanted to point out because you seem to veer in that direction with conversations.
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Chapter 8 is up!
You can find it here: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=3
Well... I tried something a bit out there based on your feedback, rowan.
I hope that you like it! ;)
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I must admit, I'm impressed. Despite my dubiousness over the plan to split into two parties presented in the last chapter, you executed it incredibly well. Fujisawa makes great sense as Kyon and Koizumi's third party member, and you're probably right that he's the most likely of the entire gang to go along with Koizumi's improbable and risky gamble (and actually believe there's hope Jinnai can reform). I kind of feel sorry for Makoto who's forced to crossdress again because Alliele's tagging along with him and Nanami, though. ;)
As for the new backstory featuring Gihren Zala, I both like and dislike it albeit more so the former than the latter. It goes a long ways towards making the Phantom Tribe more sympathetic and resolving the incongruity created by Nanoha's pseudo-crossover status, and it matches my own suspicions that there's more to the Human/Bugrom conflict than just Bugrom aggression. On the other hand, though, it goes so far as to almost BE a full-fledged crossover with Lyrical Nanoha rather than a homage which is kind of distracting not to mention a "bit out there" as you put it, and you could probably have gotten the same effect and pathos by having Galus' wife and daughter die. The reference to Gihren Zala seems a bit out of the blue too and may have worked better with more foreshadowing, but since it's a new development its sudden inclusion is understandable. And, above all else, you certainly answered my criticism about the Phantom Tribe.
The rest of the chapter was fairly good too. Mikuru continues to play a very Mikuru role and I don't know whether to pity her or look forward to the costumes Haruhi will indubitably create for her to wear to cheer the Bugrom on. Jinnai and Haruhi's continued misunderstanding of each other's intentions is beginning to seem farfetched, but then again and as you rightly pointed out both are the type of people who stubbornly cling to their own views of the world despite contrary evidence. And it appears that Haruhi is slowly beginning to suspect anyway.
Anyway, here's looking forward to the battle royale of Super Fujisawa, Esper Koizumi, and magnetic Kyon vs. the duo of Demon God Yuki and Phantom Assassin Nanoha.
^_^V
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Thanks for the largely positive review, Rowan!
Just three short points...
1) I, myself, felt that I got the best handle of the Rohstarian/protagonist group in this chapter out of all eight of them. I'm glad that you agree with Fujisawa as being the most appropriate third member of the Kyon/Koizumi "let's reform Jinnai!" party.
2) I might in fact make this a full-fleged crossover with Lyrical Nanoha - with the Nanoha anime kind of making a cameo appearance in an El Hazard/Haruhi Suzumiya cross over, you could say. I always found it odd how the father of Precia Testarossa's daughter Alicia in the Lyrical Nanoha anime was completely absent. Beyond that, I always thought of El Hazard every time that Precia mentioned "Al Hazard" in the Lyrical Nanoha anime.
Adding in a third anime of note, and adding it in a way that makes a couple pretty good anime antagonists (Galus and Precia Testarossa) seem a fair bit more interesting, makes the fanfic seem a bit grander in scale to me, which appeals to me. I'm still undecided here, however.
3) As for Haruhi and Jinnai... at this juncture, if it's not coming through that I'm slowly developing a serious romance between them (you can call it a crack-ship, if you like), then I'm not writing that aspect of their scenes well. ^^;
Either that, or the idea is too beyond the pale for anybody to take seriously, even after I've hinted at it quite a bit, I feel. If that's the case, then I really need to know that now, as shipping Haruhi and Jinnai is ultimately a big part of this fanfic, and I plan to have it picking up considerably in the next few chapters.
My idea is that if you really like a guy or a girl, you might be a bit more forgiving of some of the strange or odd things that he or she says... and also that you'll have a natural inclination to see their words in a positive light. You certainly won't want to think the worst of someone that you like that way (Haruhi would hate to find out that Jinnai is a bloddy warlord at this point; Jinnai, likewise, would hate to find out that his perfect ally doesn't believe in literal war).
Edit: Also, Jinnai really isn't misunderstanding Haruhi all that much at this point. Jinnai really does intend to try to get every civilian El Hazard human to join the SOS Brigade, and Jinnai now considers himself part of the SOS Brigade.
Him and Haruhi really do share the same desired ends now - it's just that Jinnai's intended means (i.e. partly violent ones) aren't what Haruhi would like them to be or would even knowingly approve of, but then remember what Diva told Haruhi about how the Bugrom Queen doesn't overly concern herself with the means of the Supreme Commander... ;)
I must admit, I'm impressed. Despite my dubiousness over the plan to split into two parties presented in the last chapter, you executed it incredibly well. Fujisawa makes great sense as Kyon and Koizumi's third party member, and you're probably right that he's the most likely of the entire gang to go along with Koizumi's improbable and risky gamble (and actually believe there's hope Jinnai can reform). I kind of feel sorry for Makoto who's forced to crossdress again because Alliele's tagging along with him and Nanami, though. ;)
As for the new backstory featuring Gihren Zala, I both like and dislike it albeit more so the former than the latter. It goes a long ways towards making the Phantom Tribe more sympathetic and resolving the incongruity created by Nanoha's pseudo-crossover status, and it matches my own suspicions that there's more to the Human/Bugrom conflict than just Bugrom aggression. On the other hand, though, it goes so far as to almost BE a full-fledged crossover with Lyrical Nanoha rather than a homage which is kind of distracting not to mention a "bit out there" as you put it, and you could probably have gotten the same effect and pathos by having Galus' wife and daughter die. The reference to Gihren Zala seems a bit out of the blue too and may have worked better with more foreshadowing, but since it's a new development its sudden inclusion is understandable. And, above all else, you certainly answered my criticism about the Phantom Tribe.
The rest of the chapter was fairly good too. Mikuru continues to play a very Mikuru role and I don't know whether to pity her or look forward to the costumes Haruhi will indubitably create for her to wear to cheer the Bugrom on. Jinnai and Haruhi's continued misunderstanding of each other's intentions is beginning to seem farfetched, but then again and as you rightly pointed out both are the type of people who stubbornly cling to their own views of the world despite contrary evidence. And it appears that Haruhi is slowly beginning to suspect anyway.
Anyway, here's looking forward to the battle royale of Super Fujisawa, Esper Koizumi, and magnetic Kyon vs. the duo of Demon God Yuki and Phantom Assassin Nanoha.
^_^V
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Also... Chapter 9 is now up!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=3
I hope that the battle royale meets with your approval, rowan. ;)
Edit: Also, Bugrom Queen Haruhi shaded and colored!
Link here: http://oceansama.deviantart.com/art/Bugrom-Queen-Haruhi-124646965
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3) As for Haruhi and Jinnai... at this juncture, if it's not coming through that I'm slowly developing a serious romance between them (you can call it a crack-ship, if you like), then I'm not writing that aspect of their scenes well. ^^;
Oh, I noticed that. I just wasn't sure if I was reading too much into it or not since, while not beyond the pale (After reading Fish's infamously good Shayla/Jinnai hook-up, Haruhi and Jinnai doesn't seem _that_ bizarre), romance has never seemed like something those two megalomaniacs were seriously interested in. Plus, one of my first thoughts after picking up on that subplot was "Whahoo! This means Kyon's finally free to hook up with Yuki!" and I didn't want to hex that possibility by bringing up the subject. ^_^V
As for turning this into a triple crossover by bringing Lyrical Nanoha into the mix, while the idea itself isn't bad per se I'd warn against it. This started off as a Suzumiya Haruhi/El-Hazard crossover and adding a third series in a major way to the story could diffuse the focus without contributing a whole lot to the plot at this point. You'd really have to insert the crossover convincingly, and at the moment there are some aspects of your use of Precia that stand out as troublesome if she is in fact THE Precia, not least of which is her motivation in Lyrical Nanoha compared to her motivation here.
SPOILER! Skip paragraph to avoid!After all, Precia's reason for gathering the Jewel Seeds was to travel to Al Hazard to bring her daughter back from the dead. Now, if we incorporate your story, you can justify some of her backstory by claiming that she was successful in traveling to Midchilda to cure her daughter's poisoning but her dimensional research to find a way back to El-Hazard backfired by killing the recovered Precia. That is reasonably plausible. However, why would she think El-Hazard could resurrect the dead? You're going to have to answer such questions if you want to pull off this proposal well.End SPOILER!
Anyway, as for the actual update, not bad. The battle was decently described and had a couple highlights, but there was a bit of a disjunction between the action and dialogue, I felt. Although I know that everything didn't stop as the characters spoke, it kind of seemed that way. Galus and Nahato's displeasure at Nanoha for revealing the Phantom Tribe's involvement also seemed somewhat out of place since I don't think she'd previously been described as hiding her Phantom Tribe heritage and being attacked by a blue-skinned humanoid would certainly give their role away. The story could benefit from more physical/environmental detail on occasion, I think.
The scenes of Jinnai and Haruhi laughing together and Jinnai leading the Bugrom army to Gagnon came across as the strongest, in my opinion. Jinnai is often at his best with a military force to command and that was certainly the case here. I also really liked Kyon's musing that his "low assessment of a situation was actually not low enough." That fit his sarcastic personality fantastically and was hilarious to boot. I also commend you for keeping me guessing about which way the story's heading. I felt pretty certain that Fujisawa, Kyon, and Koizumi would make it to the Bugrom Hive and meet up with Jinnai and Haruhi, but you surprised me again.
At any rate, thanks for sharing. I might criticize a lot, but I am truly enjoying reading this. And my compliments to the artist again. That's a nice drawing.
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Oh, I noticed that. I just wasn't sure if I was reading too much into it or not since, while not beyond the pale (After reading Fish's infamously good Shayla/Jinnai hook-up, Haruhi and Jinnai doesn't seem _that_ bizarre), romance has never seemed like something those two megalomaniacs were seriously interested in. Plus, one of my first thoughts after picking up on that subplot was "Whahoo! This means Kyon's finally free to hook up with Yuki!" and I didn't want to hex that possibility by bringing up the subject. ^_^V
I'm relieved that neither you nor Spanner (by far the two people following my fanfic the most, after all) are wedded to Haruhi/Kyon in the least (assuming that I'm reading Spanner right). Your Kyon/Yuki preferance is noted, and since I had no strong romantic plans for either of them, I might incorporate that into my fanfic. Indeed, Kyon could be to demon god Yuki what Makoto is to Ifurita. Such a shipping might be perfect for an El Hazard/Haruhi Suzumiya fanfic anway.
As for turning this into a triple crossover by bringing Lyrical Nanoha into the mix, while the idea itself isn't bad per se I'd warn against it. This started off as a Suzumiya Haruhi/El-Hazard crossover and adding a third series in a major way to the story could diffuse the focus without contributing a whole lot to the plot at this point. You'd really have to insert the crossover convincingly, and at the moment there are some aspects of your use of Precia that stand out as troublesome if she is in fact THE Precia, not least of which is her motivation in Lyrical Nanoha compared to her motivation here.
SPOILER! Skip paragraph to avoid!After all, Precia's reason for gathering the Jewel Seeds was to travel to Al Hazard to bring her daughter back from the dead. Now, if we incorporate your story, you can justify some of her backstory by claiming that she was successful in traveling to Midchilda to cure her daughter's poisoning but her dimensional research to find a way back to El-Hazard backfired by killing the recovered Precia. That is reasonably plausible. However, why would she think El-Hazard could resurrect the dead? You're going to have to answer such questions if you want to pull off this proposal well.End SPOILER!
Those are good points. I'll keep them in mind. In any event, even if I do bring Lyrical Nanoha officially into it, it'll be fairly subtle and a minor plot point or two.
Anyway, as for the actual update, not bad. The battle was decently described and had a couple highlights, but there was a bit of a disjunction between the action and dialogue, I felt. Although I know that everything didn't stop as the characters spoke, it kind of seemed that way.
Hhmmm... do you think that added sound effects would help? I focused mostly on describing the visuals of the battle, but perhaps that wasn't enough on its own.
Galus and Nahato's displeasure at Nanoha for revealing the Phantom Tribe's involvement also seemed somewhat out of place since I don't think she'd previously been described as hiding her Phantom Tribe heritage and being attacked by a blue-skinned humanoid would certainly give their role away.
It was briefly mentioned in a previous chapter that Nanoha had been warned to be careful around Nanami since Nanami can spot Shadow Tribe members. I thought that was enough to convey the fact that Nanoha was in "human skin" disguise, but it was probably too subtle in retrospect. I might go back and edit in a line or two concerning Nanoha's disguise then.
The story could benefit from more physical/environmental detail on occasion, I think.
Ok, I'll keep that in mind.
The scenes of Jinnai and Haruhi laughing together and Jinnai leading the Bugrom army to Gagnon came across as the strongest, in my opinion. Jinnai is often at his best with a military force to command and that was certainly the case here. I also really liked Kyon's musing that his "low assessment of a situation was actually not low enough." That fit his sarcastic personality fantastically and was hilarious to boot. I also commend you for keeping me guessing about which way the story's heading. I felt pretty certain that Fujisawa, Kyon, and Koizumi would make it to the Bugrom Hive and meet up with Jinnai and Haruhi, but you surprised me again.
Good to see I've regained my strength in the Haruhi/Jinnai sections at least. Also, I want at least a couple narration lines per chapter to really reflect Kyon well, so I'm glad that one line came through nicely. :)
At any rate, thanks for sharing. I might criticize a lot, but I am truly enjoying reading this. And my compliments to the artist again. That's a nice drawing.
Well, if you're enjoying it, that's the main thing. Well... that, and I hope that it's coming across as fairly plausible, at least (character dialogue, character interactions, the way the plot moves, etc...).
Other flaws I might go back and re-edit over time, but basic plot believability and enjoyment is harder to change after its already out there, of course.
Plus, I really appreciate the thorough honest reviews. This fanfic is going to be long enough for chapter reviews to help improve my writing of the broader fanfic as I'm going along. For example, I had intentionally intended to have Makoto and the El Hazard heroes to just go along with Itsuki and Kyon going off on their own. Your points there were right on the money, though, and hence I took the time to pick out who I felt would be the perfect 3rd party member for Kyon/Itsuki - Sensei Fujisawa. Fujisawa definitely added to the battle royale too.
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New update with Chapter 10 now up!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=4
I hope that everybody here reading it likes it! :)
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Fight scenes are something I typically struggle with myself so I'm not sure how good any advice I offer on the topic is, but the occasional use of onomatopoeia might be of some help as might interjecting parts of the battle inside the conversation, such as:
"Yuki, stop-" Koizumi hurriedly raised his arms to block the staff and winced as the metal stave slammed into his defending limbs. "-this! This is madness! We are your-" The esper hastily flipped sideways in mid-air to avoid the Demon God's follow-through attack, eyes widening as his opponent's weapon passed above his head and missed by less than an inch. "-friends! Please, try to remember us!"
Of course, overuse of either can also be problematic but a little bit of both here and they may help your battles come across as more fluid. Different techniques suit different writing styles, though, so I would also recommend you keep experimenting till you find something that works well for you.
As for what I said about the story possibly benefitting from more physical descriptions, for the most part you're fine. This is partially told from Kyon's perspective and it wouldn't make sense for him to intimately detail each and every thing he encounters, and you are also writing with the assumption that readers are already familiar with both series. However, small reminders every now and then of what the characters and environments look like could be helpful and appreciated. Take the scene in the rebuilt Bugrom throne room in your most recent update, for example. Even though you could have simply left the description at "an exact replica of Queen Diva's royal hall in the former Bugrom hive" and most of us would have been able to form a mental image of the setting, by providing additional details you helped jog clearer memories of the previous royal hall and added an additional layer of depth to the scene. And the same can go for characters, as I think a bit more time spent on Nanoha's physical appearance might have avoided the confusion I felt earlier about Galus and Nahato's words.
Anyway, I really liked this new chapter. It read very smoothly and, overall, might be one of your strongest so far in terms of actual writing quality. The wording of Makoto's party's reasoning maybe could have been phrased slightly better since it initially sounded a bit logically stretched to me, though on a second reading that impression lessened considerably. All of the scenes with the characters were nice, and in Haruhi and Mikuru's I might have even detected some foreshadowing ("I-I don't have to go around fighting Yuki again, do I?" - Not at the moment, no, but in the future? Heh) in which case kudos. I look forward to the next update.
P.S. This recently occurred to me, but at some point you might want to have Kyon mention his little sister since, as he's stranded in an alien world, he should be worried about her too.
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I have returned from my vacation! And I see that you have written plenty more fanfic for me to enjoy! ;D
With so much new material, I'll try to keep my critiques brief, so this doesn't go on and on forever.
Chapter 6:
The scene in the Bistro was well-handled, with all kinds of characters coming together at once and behaving as they should. Fujisawa's gallantry was marvelous, and Mikuru's nigh-heroic attempts to maintain her composure, followed by her near-hero-worship of Fujisawa were all very much in-character. It was fun to see the interactions of your original characters, Prince Randorm and the Saturn brothers. Then Fatora's lechery, and the Bugrom stumbling onto the scene - so much chaos!
Then, the chase, the Shadow Tribe's ensuring a Bugrom victory, Makoto's and SOS Man's face-off - I have no complaints about any of it. In fact this whole chapter was great!
Typo: "harms" should be "arms"
Chapter 7:
Aw, no triumph over Makoto for Jinnai! I sometimes feel sorry for the guy. Still, he managed quite the consolation prize with the capture of Fatora and Mikuru!
I really enjoyed Diva's heart-to-heart with Haruhi. You've developed her character well - perhaps even better than the original source material, if saying so isn't a heresy of the highest degree. Diva's speech shows her as being quite understanding of her role as Queen, and sheds new light onto why she decided to grant Jinnai as much power as she has. (The original, conversely, painted Diva as being somewhat dimwitted.)
Jinnai seems to have a crush on Haruhi... Very nice. Could see some interesting things there.
Itsuki and Kyon want to reform Jinnai? There's a tall order. The crush could help, though... not to mention Haruhi's "new vision" for the Bugrom.
Galus is taking Itsuki and Kyon seriously... bad news for them. At least we'll be seeing more of Demon God Yuki soon!
Chapter 8:
Haruhi and Mikuru, reunited at last! And now... Mikuru has to clean the fortress! I'm seeing shades of Wanderers-version Ifurita here, and I definitely approve. Mikuru needs some Wanderers-version Ifurita cosplay to make the image complete. ^_^V
It was good to see that Itsuki's plans to split off from the rest of the team with Kyon didn't work out without some compromise, in the form of Fujisawa accompanying them. He worked out well, too, in that he's probably the only one among them that would be open to the idea of reforming Jinnai (as you noted at the end of the chapter). Somehow, I doubt the alliance will be all that eager to let a war criminal like Jinnai get off scot-free, even if they DO manage to reform him.
I was definitely not too pleased with the backstory involving Galus's wife Precia and their child Alicia. Up until now, you've limited your crossover tendencies with a few names and gadgets here and there (excepting, of course, the main crossover of Haruhi and El-Hazard), but now it looks like Nanoha's being added as a third leg. You're running a lot of risk of overcomplicating the story.
Probably what most annoys me, though, is the reference of Precia being a "mage". All of the magic-like abilities in El-Hazard (and, indeed, in Haruhi, as well) are explained as being the product of science and technology - magic doesn't exist in either continuity. Even the priestesses don't refer to their powers as "magic". In the continuity of Nanoha, on the other hand, while they do use devices to enact their spells and abilities they are clearly regarded as magical.
I might be being a bit overcritical, though; the denizens of El-Hazard do seem to be superstitious enough to believe in prophesies, and I think I remember Londs mentioning "Sorcery" or "Dark magic" or something along those lines. Even so, the presentation of the story seemed to imply that magic does not exist.
Chapter 9:
The battle between Kyon's team and Yuki's, was... okay. It had a decent amount of action, but it struck me as being a bit too similar to Makoto's encounters with Ifurita, with Yuki being alternately confused and infuriated by Kyon's and Itsuki's attempts to reason with her. Fujisawa's leap-on-the-staff trick was repeated here, as well.
We have a little more development of Nanoha Inverse from a heartless Shadow Tribe assassin into... well, into Nanoha Takamichi. Galus's and Nahato's play-by-play only serves to rub it in. I have to admit, though, that I'm kind of a sucker for the whole "beautiful assassin falters because the hero charms her" thing so it's hard for me to complain too much. I wonder if Nanoha's going to fall for Kyon?
Then, there's Itsuki's supposed death... At the moment, I don't doubt for a moment that he'll pull through somehow - but if he doesn't, and actually stays dead, that's a pretty darned bold move. I wonder how stoic Yuki would react, once getting her memories back, in knowing that she'd killed one of her own friends?
Typo: "signal" should be "single".
Chapter 10:
Yup, Itsuki's not quite dead. I'm neither pleased nor disappointed by this development. It's just kinda there; a bland part of the story to digest before getting back to the spicy stuff. It did interrupt the heroes' plans to find and talk to Jinnai and Haruhi - but honestly, I think I'd have found a plot like that more interesting than the find-a-cure-in-six-days plot we have.
It's good to see Yuki starting to put two and two together. Of course, even when she realizes the answer is four, that may not change her loyalty to the Shadow Tribe - even if she was once friends with our heroes, that doesn't change the fact that she's still a demon god servant. It'll be interesting to see how she takes the revelation.
Haruhi revelling in her new chambers was fun, and it's good to see Mikuru keeping her good company. For her sake, Haruhi will hopefully soon become aware of Jinnai's... overenthusiastic methods for "expanding" the SOS Brigade in time to prevent its and her own reputation from being too thoroughly muddied!
Overall:
I'm still enjoying this story, and the "good" is still far outweighing the "bad". I put those in quotes, of course, because the "bad" here is mostly just my personal opinion. While it's good to see original characters like Nanoha Inverse receiving some character development, I'm not personally comfortable with seeing that development leading to an additional crossover element.
That, along with a bit of "recycled plot", are my only complaints this time around. The rest of it was at least good, and frequently great. Please, keep up the good work!
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Now that I've read the rest of this thread with Rowan's critiques, I thought I'd bring up a couple of additional things:
First off, yes, I noticed the story spinning in the hazy direction of a Jinnai/Haruhi pairing, and I don't object. I will note, however, that while Jinnai's leanings are pretty clear, I can't say the same for how Haruhi feels about Jinnai. It could just be that she hasn't had the same opportunities to "bend to accomodate" Jinnai as he has had for her, but at the moment the only vibe I'm getting from her toward Jinnai is how excited she is to be associating with someone that has so much influence over aliens. I'm just not picking up on the romance on her end, while it's blatantly clear on Jinnai's, as much as he'd deny it.
I will say, by the way, that you're wrong about me not being "pro-Haruhi/Kyon". ;) I LOVE the pairing; their faults and virtues seem to complement each other perfectly, with Haruhi's endless enthusiasm and commanding personality drawing Kyon out of his complacency, and Kyon's caution and rational thinking helping to keep Haruhi from spiralling too far out of control. I'm not so fanatical about the pairing that I'd condemn a story that doesn't include it, but I'll definitely say that it's my favorite pairing from the Haruhi franchise. (Yuki/Kyon is a distant second; I see some potential there, but I've yet to read a fanfic that attempts it without unforgivably mauling Yuki's character.)
Honestly, if you're going to try to pair Kyon with someone, I'd prefer to see it with someone from the El-Hazard side of the cast - or even one of your originals. I already mentioned that the interaction with Nanoha during the assassination attempt was cute. If you were REALLY ambitious you could expand in the weird rapport they seem to share and hook him up with Fatora - though, that would require a sexual orientation shift on her part or a gender shift on his and no doubt enrage Fatora fans across the world. ;D
Don't worry TOO much about Kyon, though. It's dangerous territory to get too worked up about pairing up characters in fanfics. All too many wind up tied in horrific knots due to the author's paranoia about leaving anyone without a partner; write the story you intend, and if Kyon's meant for someone then it'll just happen.
I'd noticed Nahato's and Galus's "blandness" as well, but as has been mentioned it's kind of their schtick.
On Kyon's sister... Honestly, I disagree with Rowan on that point. I doubt Kyon would worry too much about his sister. As far as he know's she's perfectly fine at home. The only times that Kyon even seems to think much about his sister are when they're actually together (at which times he tends to lament about what a pest she is), or when his sister is legitimately in danger (such as on the island during the murder mystery sequence). He might think about his sister, but I think it'd be more in the context of missing his family, in which case he'd think about his mother and father as well. Kyon's definitely not the stereotypical anime brother who has a little sister complex.
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Spanner and Rowan - Wow, you've both given me A LOT to think about. Nice to see you back from vacation, Spanner!
I might have more to say about your reviews later - I'm going to take some time to digest them first, however.
In any event - it's clear that you, Spanner, like the chapters that I enjoy writing the most (Chapter 6 was by far my favorite chapter to write of the past five), while Rowan likes detailed physical descriptions. It shouldn't be too hard to combine both into one.
Also, I referred to Precia as a mage just because that's what Precia Testarossa is in Lyrical Nanoha - making it easier to fuse in Lyrical Nanoha if I later chose to do so. However, since both you and rowan dislike the idea of a third wheel, I'll try to maneuver this back into homage (as far as other animes outside the main two here are concerned).
At this juncture, I'm mostly interested in... have I remained fairly true to all of the characters? Is there any particular character that you feel I haven't done justice to?
I would say that I'm probably half-way through the fanfic now - particularly if I decide to speed it up a bit, given what you said, Spanner, about preserving the image of Haruhi and the SOS Brigade.
Anyway, I wrote a little comedy bit connected to Jinnai's Operation: Permanent Vacation. Perhaps you'll recognize the jingle that it's based off of. ;)
I later decided that this jingle is a bit too silly for the fanfic itself, but I hope you get a laugh out of it at least...
Rapper 1: Haruhi Suzumiya, the Queen in the blouse!
Rapper 2: Lord God Jinnai, the dope is in the house!
Haruhi: I'm Haruhi Suzumiya and I went to Shinonome.
I'm now in El Hazard and the Bugrom are my hommies! <Bugrom cheer>
Jinnai: Queen Haruhi's on my side since she wandered from Japan.
I made the perfect plan because I'm the genius man!
Diva and Haruhi: It's Operation Permanent Vacation! <Jinnai laughs>
It's Operation Permanent Vacation!
Haruhi: The bugrom are my people and I refuse to let them down
So Princess Rune, hurry up and hand me over your crown!
Jinnai: And Makoto Mizuhara, I think it's important for you to know what is true.
If Rune doesn't surrender, Haruhi will unleash all the fires of hell on you!
Diva and Haruhi: It's Operation Permanent Vacation! <Jinnai laughs>
It's Operation Permanent Vacation!
Jinnai: And with Fatora missing, the threat of the Eye of God does fade
So it's time to accept the rule and domination of the SOS Brigade!
Haruhi: Rebels are back in jail, I will never fail!
But Mikuru is gone. Where is she? Something's wrong.
She should be now here singing, but she isn't in my song!
Diva and Haruhi: It's Operation Permanent Vacation!
Mikuru: Operation... Oops, it's over now. I'm going to get gonged!
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Chapter 11 is now up! : http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9071501&posted=1#post9071501
I hope that everybody here likes it! ;D
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Hmm... Characters you've not done justice to? If I had to pick one, I'd probably have to say Nanami. She seems to be constantly offering up suspicion and mistrust toward the newcomers. While she IS pretty smart and might pick up on some of the half-truths Kyon and Itsuki have been showing, canon Nanami tends to be more the trusting sort.
Nanami is first and foremost an optimist. When she saw Kiriya approaching Makoto with a dagger, she was merely curious, not afraid. When she first saw Nahato, she thought he was adorable in spite of the fact that she knew the Phantom Tribe was antagonistic. She was also thrilled to learn of the political marriage between Roshtaria and the Phantom Tribe. While she has her off moments (mostly related to women who want to warm up to Makoto), Nanami just about always meets new faces with warmth and friendship, and only becomes antagonistic when they prove themselves to be enemies.
Your Operation: Permanent Vacation rap was cute. :) You're probably right, though: it doesn't really fit with the tone of your story as a whole. (Heck, even in "The Wanderers", it was more an omake than an actual part of the story.)
Now, Chapter Eleven. This was a filler chapter with not much plot progression or action. It was mostly about people finding out stuff. The Roshtarians found out about Haruhi's and Mikaru's involvement with the Bugrom. Haruhi found out about Itsuki's "torture" at the hands of the Roshtarians. Yuki found out about her former friendships with the SOS Brigadiers. Haruhi and Jinnai found out about their mutual attraction. It's not a bad thing for all this to be happening, but it doesn't leave me much to comment on.
Gannan's indoctrination into the SOS Brigade was amusing and interesting.
It was fun to see Yuki figure things out a bit, though I'm not sure that Yuki would be the sort to express her emotions to the point where she would glare at Galus as she did. At any rate, I look forward to seeing how she confronts the problem of being an unwilling servant rather than a willing one.
There was a little more recycled material here, with Haruhi's reenactment of the "Big Raid Medal" presentation.
Nanami's pouncing on Kyon after finding out about Haruhi and Mikuru seemed a bit excessive, but I think I covered that well enough above.
And that's about it! The story has moved forward, or at least sideways. I look forward to reading more!
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Hmm... Characters you've not done justice to? If I had to pick one, I'd probably have to say Nanami. She seems to be constantly offering up suspicion and mistrust toward the newcomers. While she IS pretty smart and might pick up on some of the half-truths Kyon and Itsuki have been showing, canon Nanami tends to be more the trusting sort.
Nanami is first and foremost an optimist. When she saw Kiriya approaching Makoto with a dagger, she was merely curious, not afraid. When she first saw Nahato, she thought he was adorable in spite of the fact that she knew the Phantom Tribe was antagonistic. She was also thrilled to learn of the political marriage between Roshtaria and the Phantom Tribe. While she has her off moments (mostly related to women who want to warm up to Makoto), Nanami just about always meets new faces with warmth and friendship, and only becomes antagonistic when they prove themselves to be enemies.
Your Operation: Permanent Vacation rap was cute. :) You're probably right, though: it doesn't really fit with the tone of your story as a whole. (Heck, even in "The Wanderers", it was more an omake than an actual part of the story.)
Now, Chapter Eleven. This was a filler chapter with not much plot progression or action. It was mostly about people finding out stuff. The Roshtarians found out about Haruhi's and Mikaru's involvement with the Bugrom. Haruhi found out about Itsuki's "torture" at the hands of the Roshtarians. Yuki found out about her former friendships with the SOS Brigadiers. Haruhi and Jinnai found out about their mutual attraction. It's not a bad thing for all this to be happening, but it doesn't leave me much to comment on.
Gannan's indoctrination into the SOS Brigade was amusing and interesting.
It was fun to see Yuki figure things out a bit, though I'm not sure that Yuki would be the sort to express her emotions to the point where she would glare at Galus as she did. At any rate, I look forward to seeing how she confronts the problem of being an unwilling servant rather than a willing one.
There was a little more recycled material here, with Haruhi's reenactment of the "Big Raid Medal" presentation.
Nanami's pouncing on Kyon after finding out about Haruhi and Mikuru seemed a bit excessive, but I think I covered that well enough above.
And that's about it! The story has moved forward, or at least sideways. I look forward to reading more!
Well, I thought it would be a good idea to get a lot of the "bringing people up to speed" elements dealt with in one chapter. I also wanted my main focus, for this chapter, to be on getting the Haruhi/Jinnai romance done right. What did you think of that in particular, by the way? Was the dialogue believable/in-character there?
With maybe one small exception in the very last chapter, this is the last recycled material that you'll see in this fanfic.
Good points on Nanami. I was planning to have a bit of a heated confrontation between Haruhi and Nanami at a later juncture, but I might scrap that now, given what you said about Nanami. I guess I kind of liked to have somebody be the bad cop to Makoto's good cop (because Makoto certainly can't be the bad cop ;) ). Somebody to really push some buttons. Still, I'll try to soften up Nanami a bit.
Is it fair to say that you prefer less talking/more action?
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Well, I thought it would be a good idea to get a lot of the "bringing people up to speed" elements dealt with in one chapter. I also wanted my main focus, for this chapter, to be on getting the Haruhi/Jinnai romance done right. What did you think of that in particular, by the way? Was the dialogue believable/in-character there?
Well... to be honest, the Haruhi/Jinnai thing so far is just something that I've decided to smile and nod on. You said yourself that it's something of a "crack pairing", and it really is. Guiding these two to a romance has required curbing their respective personalities in hundreds of tiny (and some not-so-tiny) ways, and so it's more generous than I can manage to say that I find it to be believable or in-character.
Like most crack pairings I've read in fanfiction, it's something that I've mostly decided to just ignore. Basically, "Well, the author seems dead-set on putting these two together... Eh, let him have his fun; as long as the rest of the story is good I can let it slide." Sorry I can't be more positive, but I'm simply not a subscriber to the "He's awesome, she's awesome, they'd be awesome together!" school of romance favored by so many fanfiction writers. ;D
That said, I think the dialogue you've presented here is about as good as you're going to get. It seems, though, that Haruhi has totally forgotten that she believes love to be a mental illness. :P
With maybe one small exception in the very last chapter, this is the last recycled material that you'll see in this fanfic.
Good points on Nanami. I was planning to have a bit of a heated confrontation between Haruhi and Nanami at a later juncture, but I might scrap that now, given what you said about Nanami. I guess I kind of liked to have somebody be the bad cop to Makoto's good cop (because Makoto certainly can't be the bad cop ;) ). Somebody to really push some buttons. Still, I'll try to soften up Nanami a bit.
Well, it's a little too late to develop it now, but I'd say Shayla-Shayla should have been your girl if you wanted a "bad cop". She's quick-tempered, short-sighted, quick to accuse and to blame, loves to nurse grudges, and hates to admit when she's wrong. Her initial encounter with Kyon would have been perfect for setting her on a road in which she distrusts Kyon and anyone that considers Kyon a friend.
Of course, eventually she'd realize that she's wrong about him, but pride would prevent her from ever truly giving up the "bad cop" role.
Naturally, all this would place her relationship with Kyon as being dangerously similar to her relationship with Makoto in the original series. Since I've already complained enough about "recycled material", it's probably best in the end that you didn't follow this path!
Is it fair to say that you prefer less talking/more action?
Nah, don't take me wrong on that. I have no problem with the last chapter being talky. Sometimes you just have to develop the overall situation rather than continue plunging the heroes and villians into direct conflict.
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Here's Chapter 12!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=4
I did my best, Spanner, to make this a chapter that you'll enjoy reading.
Because... and I hate to say this... but I strongly doubt that you're going to like the chapters after it. ^^;
Oh well, I hope that you enjoy Chapter 12 at least! ^_^V
P.S. Tomorrow is my College Grad, and I have Finals next Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. So... it'll probably be about six days before I get Chapter 13 up. I might get it up by Sunday if studying goes well, but I can't guarantee it. Also depends on how well my creativity is flowing on the weekend, really. I'll definitely be checking back here over the next few days to see if there's any reviews for Chapter 12, though.
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Yup, this was a good chapter. :D
In this chapter, Jinnai prepares to walk into a trap, and Kyon unknowingly walks into a trap.
I was kind of expecting that Jinnai would attempt to hide the fact that he knew that the Alliance would never stoop to meaningless torture in order to help turn Haruhi against them, but instead it seems that he's actually decided to give credit where it is due. Too bad none of his allies were actually able to believe him.
Still, it's nice to see that he can recognize the obvious trap. And it's a good excuse for everyone to cosplay! Haruhi and Mikuru (or, rather, Ryoko and Mikuru) get to dress up in those palace attendant outfits, and Jinnai... well, we've witnessed the return of Groundskeeper Fred! I do enjoy these occasional homages to The Wanderers, I must admit. :)
Kyon's powers are seeming more and more Magneto-like every time he uses them. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
And, Nanoha returns to action! I find Galus's interactions with her to be somewhat intriguing... While he seems to have a kind of soft spot for her, it seems that he also has absolutely no problem using her as a disposable tool. It's almost like, "In respect to my daughter, I won't kill or severely punish Nanoha for her failures, but if she dies on a dangerous mission I won't lose any sleep over it." Admittedly, this sort of callous almost-affection is something that I could see from a ruthless character like Galus.
And, at the very end of the chapter, Ifurita Eleven! Honestly, I think she's going to exist for about as long as it takes for Nanami to reveal that she's actually Nanoha under a Shadow Tribe illusion, but if it really is a new Ifurita model then it'll be fun to see how Kyon and his friends deal with her.
This chapter was mostly solid, but it does have something of a weak spot in Ura's introduction. Reading the passage almost made me feel like the author suddenly thought, "Oh, crap! I completely forgot about Ura! I gotta make up an excuse as to why she wasn't around!" Admittedly, this deeply into the story it would have been difficult to mix Ura back in without it coming off as awkward, so I'm not sure what could make this passage better. Probably the best solution would have been to have returned to earlier sections of the work and added new content to support the sudden reintroduction of Ura later.
Anyway, good job, and keep writing! I was a bit confused when you mentioned that "I wouldn't like the chapters after this". Honestly, you'd have to work VERY hard to drive this story into the dirt before I'd actually start disliking it. I presume by your apprehension that you plan on going ahead with your plans to add Nanoha as an extra crossover element, as that's really the only part of the story that I might have come across as dead-set against. I'd like to assure you that even that wouldn't be enough to turn me off. I think it's a questionable direction to take the story in, but there's still plenty of good stuff here.
If that's NOT what you meant... well, I guess I honestly can't think of what you might have in mind.
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Yup, this was a good chapter. :D
In this chapter, Jinnai prepares to walk into a trap, and Kyon unknowingly walks into a trap.
I was kind of expecting that Jinnai would attempt to hide the fact that he knew that the Alliance would never stoop to meaningless torture in order to help turn Haruhi against them, but instead it seems that he's actually decided to give credit where it is due. Too bad none of his allies were actually able to believe him.
What self-respecting guy is going to want to walk his girlfriend right into a trap that's been set for her? ;)
Still, it's nice to see that he can recognize the obvious trap. And it's a good excuse for everyone to cosplay! Haruhi and Mikuru (or, rather, Ryoko and Mikuru) get to dress up in those palace attendant outfits, and Jinnai... well, we've witnessed the return of Groundskeeper Fred! I do enjoy these occasional homages to The Wanderers, I must admit. :)
Kyon's powers are seeming more and more Magneto-like every time he uses them. That's not a criticism, just an observation.
Yeah, that's the comic book fan in me coming through again. :D
And, Nanoha returns to action! I find Galus's interactions with her to be somewhat intriguing... While he seems to have a kind of soft spot for her, it seems that he also has absolutely no problem using her as a disposable tool. It's almost like, "In respect to my daughter, I won't kill or severely punish Nanoha for her failures, but if she dies on a dangerous mission I won't lose any sleep over it." Admittedly, this sort of callous almost-affection is something that I could see from a ruthless character like Galus.
Agreed. I think that it suits him well.
And, at the very end of the chapter, Ifurita Eleven! Honestly, I think she's going to exist for about as long as it takes for Nanami to reveal that she's actually Nanoha under a Shadow Tribe illusion, but if it really is a new Ifurita model then it'll be fun to see how Kyon and his friends deal with her.
I'll leave you in anticipation here.
This chapter was mostly solid, but it does have something of a weak spot in Ura's introduction. Reading the passage almost made me feel like the author suddenly thought, "Oh, crap! I completely forgot about Ura! I gotta make up an excuse as to why she wasn't around!" Admittedly, this deeply into the story it would have been difficult to mix Ura back in without it coming off as awkward, so I'm not sure what could make this passage better. Probably the best solution would have been to have returned to earlier sections of the work and added new content to support the sudden reintroduction of Ura later.
That's close to it. I made a conscious decision to leave Ura out of the story early on, mainly because I felt that the first big "all the protagonists in one spot" meeting back in Chapter 2 was cluttered enough as it was.
As the story went on, though, I thought a couple times "Man, it seems odd for Makoto to not bother with his Ura armor for this long". So, I decided it was time to bring Ura back in.
The excuse is a bit flimsy, I'll admit, but I found the idea of Dr. Schtalubaugh playing mad chemistry scientist kind of funny, so... ;)
Anyway, good job, and keep writing! I was a bit confused when you mentioned that "I wouldn't like the chapters after this". Honestly, you'd have to work VERY hard to drive this story into the dirt before I'd actually start disliking it. I presume by your apprehension that you plan on going ahead with your plans to add Nanoha as an extra crossover element, as that's really the only part of the story that I might have come across as dead-set against. I'd like to assure you that even that wouldn't be enough to turn me off. I think it's a questionable direction to take the story in, but there's still plenty of good stuff here.
If that's NOT what you meant... well, I guess I honestly can't think of what you might have in mind.
I can explain what I meant in a PM to you if you'd like. I'd rather not spell it out here, though, because it might spoil Rowan (and anybody else following the story).
Anyway, I appreciate the vote of confidence, and maybe I read too much into something you wrote earlier... so maybe you'll like the rest of the story anyway. I can tell you that it's not Nanoha, no.
I'm going to admit that my original plan was to turn her into THE Nanoha Takamachi via teleportation to Earth combined with de-aging/memory erasing creating a weird time paradox loop.
That plans been scrapped though.
Thanks for the great positive feedback, and support, Spanner.
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I can explain what I meant in a PM to you if you'd like. I'd rather not spell it out here, though, because it might spoil Rowan (and anybody else following the story).
Nah, no need for you to spoil me, either, unless you really want my advice on whatever matter it is, in which case feel free to PM me and I'll give it a shot.
If you don't tell me, though, there's a fair chance that I'll completely miss it and you'll realize you were just being paranoid. XD
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(Yuki/Kyon is a distant second; I see some potential there, but I've yet to read a fanfic that attempts it without unforgivably mauling Yuki's character.)
If you ever do find a good in-character one, please tell me. I like Haruhi and Kyon as a couple and pretty much accept that they'll end up together (Haruhi's pretty hard to say no to, after all :) ), but a good read featuring the Yuki/Kyon pairing could be pretty nice.
Anyway, I mostly agree with Spanner about characterizations. Nanami's the only one who's stood out as somewhat consistently out of character with her suspiciousness, and you addressed that in recent updates. Otherwise, you seem to have a good understanding of the cast in general, although there are occasional cases where actions and dialogues feel slightly off to me. I think what really helps you is that you appear to like and respect all of the characters, so even though you don't always necessarily nail them head on you don't bash them either and they at least act with reasonable intelligence.
I will add here that Haruhi's confession of her feelings to Jinnai didn't really strike me as in-character for her, though. She has enough trouble admitting that she likes Kyon and is as vulnerable to the love bug as anyone else, and now all of a sudden she's opening herself up? This declaration might have worked better doing a moment of crisis, as clichéd as that sounds. I do like how neither Jinnai nor Haruhi have suddenly gone all mushy-mushy and are still acting as megalomaniacal and imperious as ever, though. Despite the change in their relationship, they still feel like the same characters.
Anyway, good job with these two chapters. The overview of Gannon's "conversion" was amusing though not as hilarious as Haruhi forcing Mikuru into becoming the moe mascot of the Bugrom Empire. I half expected her to include the usual risqué photos of Mikuru in the promotional boxes, though Jinnai's arguably decent enough that he might quietly remove such items before handing out the packages. The scenes with the other protagonists were reasonably good too, though it seemed almost too convenient how everything fell into place perfectly for Nahato. Still, not bad for a filler chapter.
As for Chapter 12, I think by now it's pretty clear that I'm a Jinnai fan and I really liked that you had him realize the set-up was a trap instead of warping it into one of his "Makoto is evil!" delusions. You're doing some of his incredible deviousness justice, and the allusions to "The Wanderers" are entertaining too. You'd think the Phantom Tribe would be among his prime suspects, though, considering what he said about scrambled messages. And Haruhi's Ryoko masquerade is quite the interesting choice and has me wondering if it'll jog any more of Yuki's memories. The detailed description of the Coruscate Caverns was very nice too and really gave me a strong picture of the place's natural beauty. I also think that you did a better job with the fight scene between Fatora's rescue squad and the Bugrom than your earlier battle between Kyon, Koizumi, and Fujisawa and Yuki and Nanoha, so congratulations on the improvement.
I'm a little bit iffy about Ifurita Eleven (does the story really need another Demon God?) and am not quite certain how to feel about Nanoha at the moment, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until I discover how you put these two to use. Diva's willingness to let Haruhi go with Jinnai into a potentially dangerous situation also struck me as slightly strange considering how protective of the new Bugrom Queen she's been, though I suppose she might be remembering her own youth cooped up by the chains of duty and is trying to give her successor a bit more freedom. Despite these small criticisms, though, I'm still enjoying the story and am interested in seeing how things go from here. Thanks for sharing.
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If you ever do find a good in-character one, please tell me. I like Haruhi and Kyon as a couple and pretty much accept that they'll end up together (Haruhi's pretty hard to say no to, after all :) ), but a good read featuring the Yuki/Kyon pairing could be pretty nice.
Anyway, I mostly agree with Spanner about characterizations. Nanami's the only one who's stood out as somewhat consistently out of character with her suspiciousness, and you addressed that in recent updates. Otherwise, you seem to have a good understanding of the cast in general, although there are occasional cases where actions and dialogues feel slightly off to me. I think what really helps you is that you appear to like and respect all of the characters, so even though you don't always necessarily nail them head on you don't bash them either and they at least act with reasonable intelligence.
I will add here that Haruhi's confession of her feelings to Jinnai didn't really strike me as in-character for her, though. She has enough trouble admitting that she likes Kyon and is as vulnerable to the love bug as anyone else, and now all of a sudden she's opening herself up? This declaration might have worked better doing a moment of crisis, as clichéd as that sounds. I do like how neither Jinnai nor Haruhi have suddenly gone all mushy-mushy and are still acting as megalomaniacal and imperious as ever, though. Despite the change in their relationship, they still feel like the same characters.
Anyway, good job with these two chapters. The overview of Gannon's "conversion" was amusing though not as hilarious as Haruhi forcing Mikuru into becoming the moe mascot of the Bugrom Empire. I half expected her to include the usual risqué photos of Mikuru in the promotional boxes, though Jinnai's arguably decent enough that he might quietly remove such items before handing out the packages. The scenes with the other protagonists were reasonably good too, though it seemed almost too convenient how everything fell into place perfectly for Nahato. Still, not bad for a filler chapter.
As for Chapter 12, I think by now it's pretty clear that I'm a Jinnai fan and I really liked that you had him realize the set-up was a trap instead of warping it into one of his "Makoto is evil!" delusions. You're doing some of his incredible deviousness justice, and the allusions to "The Wanderers" are entertaining too. You'd think the Phantom Tribe would be among his prime suspects, though, considering what he said about scrambled messages. And Haruhi's Ryoko masquerade is quite the interesting choice and has me wondering if it'll jog any more of Yuki's memories. The detailed description of the Coruscate Caverns was very nice too and really gave me a strong picture of the place's natural beauty. I also think that you did a better job with the fight scene between Fatora's rescue squad and the Bugrom than your earlier battle between Kyon, Koizumi, and Fujisawa and Yuki and Nanoha, so congratulations on the improvement.
I'm a little bit iffy about Ifurita Eleven (does the story really need another Demon God?) and am not quite certain how to feel about Nanoha at the moment, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt until I discover how you put these two to use. Diva's willingness to let Haruhi go with Jinnai into a potentially dangerous situation also struck me as slightly strange considering how protective of the new Bugrom Queen she's been, though I suppose she might be remembering her own youth cooped up by the chains of duty and is trying to give her successor a bit more freedom. Despite these small criticisms, though, I'm still enjoying the story and am interested in seeing how things go from here. Thanks for sharing.
I'm glad that you liked Chapters 11 and 12 a fair bit! :)
Your constructive criticism on a few points is noted, however.
It is true that there's no El Hazard character that I dislike and disrespect - I feel that it's a very solid cast. I also think that the entire cast is fairly smart, though some (Makoto and Jinnai, mainly) are a bit sharper than others.
Chapter 13 is now up! You can check the post I made after this one if you need a link to it.
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Chapter 13 is up! : http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9097720#post9097720
Warning: This is probably the most emotionally intense chapter of them all, with one or two possible exceptions later on. There are some funny bits - mainly some of Fujisawa's lines (I hope) as well as some Haruhi/Jinnai back-and-forth, but... for the most part, this chapter is a dark one. Just a warning!
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All right! Chapter thirteen.
We start off with the confrontation with Nanoha. It seems that I was correct in my guess about "Ifurita Eleven". Nanoha reveals a bit more of her past, including an allusion to El-Hazard Nazis! Well, Nazi-like fascists, as any rate, but still acceptable shorthand for the kind of Social Evil that would be required to change a good-hearted girl like Nanoha into a cold-blooded assassin. (Damn those Nazis!)
Then, Kyon semi-reforms her and she heads off to go find herself, leaving our heroes free to obtain Itsuki's cure and head back.
All in all, a decently handled section. The action was good, though it made me kind of wonder just what Galus was thinking sending Nanoha in alone against a set of superpowered humans. They were able to disarm and restrain her pretty easily, with Nanami to counter her illusions and Kyon to nullify her weapons. I was glad to see Kyon had a little trouble pinning her down; one would think that an assassin would be able to handle herself in a fight, even unarmed.
Nothing much to say on the Itsuki premonition scene or Fujisawa's rescue of Fatora.
I'm not sure that I was able to buy into the tactical logic presented by Jinnai in splitting up his group so that he could fly with Haruhi into Floristica. Jinnai claimed that it would make the group more difficult to trap... and while it's true that it'd make it tougher to trap the WHOLE group, it pretty much doubles the chance that PART of the group will get caught, which will alert the rest of the city that an infiltration is underway. Probably more than double, actually, since the method Jinnai chose to get in was to change Haruhi into a winged girl with a huge, easy-to-spot 20-foot wingspan and fly into a well-defended city that is doubtless well-prepared to notice invasions by air (Bugrom do have fliers, after all).
On the other hand, a night-time flight with the two of them alone is a heckuva lot more romantic than slogging through the sewers with a slew of Bugrom. Which I'm guessing was the real point here. Still, you gotta admit it was a bit contrived.
And, at last, we come to the closure of Galus's trap, and Jinnai's noble sacrifice. I found myself a bit confused while reading this as to what, exactly, Galus's plan actually was. It seemed to be his intent to make Haruhi go berserk, and while Jinnai's death may, indeed, cause this, Yuki's actions seem a bit odd.
It seems that Yuki was honestly aiming for Haruhi, given the little blurb that mentioned how she couldn't bring herself to take another shot. If she was honestly gunning for Haruhi, then it seems like Galus was expecting Haruhi would be able to survive a direct assault from a Demon God, and still have enough left in her to savage the world. That's an awfully big assumption, considering that the only evidence that Galus has that Haruhi has godlike power is the fact that she was able to restore the Bugrom Empire quickly; what in that implies immortality?
Or, possibly, Galus sent Yuki with clear instructions to kill Haruhi and was COUNTING on Jinnai sacrificing his life. This was taking a pretty tremendous risk, both in assuming that Jinnai would take the shot AND that his emotionless and absolutely obedient Demon God would be too shaken up to finish Haruhi off afterwards. Haruhi wouldn't be able to do much to wreck the world if she was shot in the back by Yuki while grieving over Jinnai. There's calculated risks, and there's million-to-one odds; this would be the latter.
I guess it would help if we knew exactly what orders Galus gave to Yuki. If he ordered Yuki to draw Jinnai into taking the shot, then it all makes sense. If he ordered Yuki to shoot Haruhi not to kill, but to wound her while making it look as though she was trying to kill her, that would make sense as well (we'd still have the "Haruhi feels betrayed by her Brigade" angle if Haruhi believed Yuki was trying to kill her). In the latter case, Jinnai's taking the shot was just a fortunate bonus.
I guess the bulk of the confusion is because Yuki is apparently supposed to keep shooting at Haruhi. If that can be explained away, then that might solve the problem.
Oh, and yeah, Jinnai's dead. Let's see if you have the guts to keep him that way. HaHAhAHAhAHahaHAHAhaHA!!!
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All right! Chapter thirteen.
We start off with the confrontation with Nanoha. It seems that I was correct in my guess about "Ifurita Eleven". Nanoha reveals a bit more of her past, including an allusion to El-Hazard Nazis! Well, Nazi-like fascists, as any rate, but still acceptable shorthand for the kind of Social Evil that would be required to change a good-hearted girl like Nanoha into a cold-blooded assassin. (Damn those Nazis!)
Then, Kyon semi-reforms her and she heads off to go find herself, leaving our heroes free to obtain Itsuki's cure and head back.
All in all, a decently handled section. The action was good, though it made me kind of wonder just what Galus was thinking sending Nanoha in alone against a set of superpowered humans. They were able to disarm and restrain her pretty easily, with Nanami to counter her illusions and Kyon to nullify her weapons. I was glad to see Kyon had a little trouble pinning her down; one would think that an assassin would be able to handle herself in a fight, even unarmed.
Edit: I'm glad that you liked this section for the most part. :)
Nanoha was rather outmatched yeah. That was arguably careless on Galus' part, on second though - but, on the other hand, the Shadow Tribe did only bother with one assassin for the canon El Hazard itself, so it seems to be standard MO for Galus.
Galus didn't need Nanoha to actually win, or succeed - simply slow down Kyon et al for awhile. It doesn't matter if Kyon et al live if his main trap for Haruhi succeeds.
Nothing much to say on the Itsuki premonition scene or Fujisawa's rescue of Fatora.
I'm not sure that I was able to buy into the tactical logic presented by Jinnai in splitting up his group so that he could fly with Haruhi into Floristica. Jinnai claimed that it would make the group more difficult to trap... and while it's true that it'd make it tougher to trap the WHOLE group, it pretty much doubles the chance that PART of the group will get caught, which will alert the rest of the city that an infiltration is underway. Probably more than double, actually, since the method Jinnai chose to get in was to change Haruhi into a winged girl with a huge, easy-to-spot 20-foot wingspan and fly into a well-defended city that is doubtless well-prepared to notice invasions by air (Bugrom do have fliers, after all).
Edit: I wouldn't say that the situation was downright contrived, but... I'd be willing to cop out to it being a lucky one for Haruhi and Jinnai. Maybe you could say they had a 10% chance of not getting spotted while flying into the city, and they happened to be just fortunate enough
What I probably didn't stress enough was how this move into Florestica took place during the night - it's not pitch-black, but it's dark enough that a human-sized flyer might not be spotted easily.
Plus, Roshtaria's overall military readiness is probably somewhat lowered given how the Bugrom Empire have only very recently been restored.
Also, I'm going to be frank - I never found the Alliance's military defenses to be all that impressive. I mean, in the canon, Jinnai just steam-rolled them, country after country after country. Part of that is his military genius, yes, but part of it also has to be the Alliance not being all that proficient at defending themselves. I mean, the bugrom don't even have guns and the Alliance can't stop them. Ifurita didn't exactly run into an awful lot of effective opposition when she went into Florestica itself either.
I mean - I really don't think that this is like Jinnai and Haruhi trying to break into the White House back on Earth.
On the other hand, a night-time flight with the two of them alone is a heckuva lot more romantic than slogging through the sewers with a slew of Bugrom. Which I'm guessing was the real point here. Still, you gotta admit it was a bit contrived.
Actually, I just found the idea neat in general. Haruhi's powers haven't been showcased anywhere near as much as Kyon's has, and I felt it was time to change that. Honestly, I thought that you'd like that to - you were very questioning over the exact nature of Haruhi's powers before, and I thought it was time to shed some light on the subject.
Furthermore, Groucho and Mikuru are intended, in part, to test Jinnai's already existing secret sewer entrance for any possible booby traps. That's the very first thing that Jinnai asked Groucho about when the two of them met up in Florestica.
In a cold, calculating way, Jinnai is choosing to place more risk on Groucho and Mikuru than on himself and Haruhi. Makes sense to me.
edit: I sometimes like to write Jinnai as a guy that you need to read between-the-lines with.
And, at last, we come to the closure of Galus's trap, and Jinnai's noble sacrifice. I found myself a bit confused while reading this as to what, exactly, Galus's plan actually was. It seemed to be his intent to make Haruhi go berserk, and while Jinnai's death may, indeed, cause this, Yuki's actions seem a bit odd.
It seems that Yuki was honestly aiming for Haruhi, given the little blurb that mentioned how she couldn't bring herself to take another shot. If she was honestly gunning for Haruhi, then it seems like Galus was expecting Haruhi would be able to survive a direct assault from a Demon God, and still have enough left in her to savage the world. That's an awfully big assumption, considering that the only evidence that Galus has that Haruhi has godlike power is the fact that she was able to restore the Bugrom Empire quickly; what in that implies immortality?
Nahato talked about the readings coming off of Haruhi several chapters back. He talked about the immense power readings coming off of Haruhi. Him and Galus had a discussion centered around that.
It's probably not a stretch to think that a girl with neigh-omnipotent (Galus' own term for it) power readings would be able to protect herself against an El Hazard demon god attack.
Galus' plan was to enrage Haruhi, and force her to use her power to defend herself against an attack from Yuki. He was hoping that Haruhi would be so incensed by his base trickery against her, and by Yuki betraying her, that she would lash out at El Hazard as a whole, or possibly reboot it in desperate self-defense.
I guess the bulk of the confusion is because Yuki is apparently supposed to keep shooting at Haruhi. If that can be explained away, then that might solve the problem.
No, Yuki shooting at Haruhi to force Haruhi to use her powers in desperate self-defense is the whole idea.
Jinnai's noble act of sacrifice was not counted on - Galus is merely amused by it, and naturally pleased by it since Jinnai did get in the way of his plans before.
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First, let me say that I think your ability to depict person-to-person battles has improved. This second round of the heroes versus Nanoha didn't give me the same impression of disjunction between action and dialogue that the first bout did, and it managed to generate some of the sense of being fast-paced and active that such an encounter would actually have. Nanoha's underwhelming odds weakened the tension a bit, though. Kyon did a decent job of matching her the first time they fought, and with Makoto and Nanami further neutralizing her advantages and no new tricks up her sleeves I really wasn't too worried about the protagonists once combat started. Having Nanoha injure someone early on (maybe Nanami since her power dispels one of her greatest strengths?) to show how dangerous and committed she is or giving her a weapon upgrade (dangerous Phantom Tribe Belkan technology! ^_^V ) might have gone a ways towards making the battle more suspenseful. Still, it was a fun read, and I appreciated that you had Nanoha do the "You've given me some things to think about so I'm going to sojourn for a little while" rather than the immediate 180-degree motivation shift. Both are clichés and with good reason, but the former seems more appropriate in this situation with this character. At the very least, a few hours to think things through could do the Phantom Tribe assassin some good.
As for the other scenes, I share some of Spanner's criticisms. Contrived might not be entirely the right word since your reasoning is defensible, but it is important to remember that what is obvious to you as the writer isn't necessarily as obvious to the readers. When Jinnai revealed that his brilliant scheme to sneak into Florestica was to have Haruhi fly over the city walls my first response was a facepalm. Had you stressed that they would have the cover of darkness and that Florestica has scant lookouts for airborne travelers this probably wouldn't have seemed as much of a stretch, just as if you'd reminded the audience that Nanoha was disguised as a non-Phantom Triber during the battle royale between her and Yuki and Kyon, Koizumi, and Fujisawa I might not have done a double-take at some of Galus and Nahato's words. Similarly, after rereading Galus's dialogue in this chapter I can sort of see that his plan was to provoke a violent response from Haruhi through a direct attack but on the initial read-through this wasn't clear to me and I instead misinterpreted it as "Phantom Tribe taking away what Haruhi cares about to enrage/depress her to the point where she lashes out at the entire world." Earlier dialogue had also given me the impression that the Phantom Tribe's plan was to strip away Haruhi's illusions about El-Hazard and expose her to the harsh truth about her new friends and empire to drive her to a moment of pure despair, which is kind of ironic considering that the Phantom Tribe's favored instrument is deception. So at the time Yuki's choice of targets seemed peculiar to me as well.
Otherwise, though, the scenes with Jinnai and Haruhi had a lot of great dialogue and the dynamics between them continue to be fairly interesting. I especially liked their interactions together as they flew over the wall, criticisms of the logic of the scene itself notwithstanding. And, although it was arguably predictable, Jinnai's noble sacrifice still surprised me a bit. Now's certainly a PERFECT opportunity for any heretofore latent healing powers Mikuru might have gained during the trip to El-Hazard to manifest themselves, eh? ;) I also enjoyed Fujisawa's rescue of Fatora, and I think you struck the right balance on the princess's part between joy over being saved and the annoyance at having had to wait so long.
Anyway, thanks for sharing and good luck with your writing. This was an enjoyable update.
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It's probably not a stretch to think that a girl with neigh-omnipotent (Galus' own term for it) power readings would be able to protect herself against an El Hazard demon god attack.
Ah... While I do understand your reasoning, this is something that has been itching at the back of my head since near the beginning, though I wasn't quite able to find the words to explain what was bugging me. Chalk it up to years of sci-fi and accepting "sensors" as nigh-omniscient magical devices.
I can accept that Galus and Nahato had some kind of Shadow Tribe doohickey that can scan a being and deterimine whether their power levels are OVER 9000!!! or not. I guess what was bugging me was that they were able to make all kinds of crazy assumptions as to just what that means.
If someone swallows a nuclear reactor, their power levels might be off the charts, but that doesn't mean that they can do anything with that power other than crap it out later (if you'll pardon the crude imagery). Admittedly, with the miraculous restoration of the Bugrom Horde, Galus and Nahato did have a clue that Haruhi is able to do SOMETHING with that Phenominal Cosmic Power. Later they get to witness her shapeshifting as well.
However, there's still a huge, huge gap between these parlor tricks and unkillable, omnipotent god. It's not a stretch to assume that betraying Haruhi might cause her to unleash untold havoc, even if it's only in the form of spawning an enormous army of Bugrom, or shapeshifting into a monster. Neither of these talents, though, would necessarily protect her from a Demon God's determined assault, though, like Galus assumed they would. (They COULD, I suppose - she could summon Bugrom in front of her to absorb energy blasts ala Smash Bros. Princess Peach and Toad, or shapeshift to heal wounds - but I'm guessing that's not what Galus had in mind.)
While it might be reasonable on the Shadow Tribe's part for them to assume that someone with godlike power can use it as she chooses at first, they had Haruhi under near-continuous observation. After a while, the logical conclusion that they SHOULD have come to is that Haruhi has an ocean of power, but just a tiny little Bugrom-shaped spigot to use it with. Not exactly someone you can turn a Demon God against and expect to survive.
You could, of course, take the angle that the sensors the Tribe were using were capable both of detecting great power AND of detecting the unconscious ability to use that great power - but that seems a little far-fetched to me, even with my sci-fi-powered ability to suspend my disbelief.
You need to provide Galus both with the ability to detect her power and a believable way for him to reason out that she can use it in the way that he hopes. One way you could have handled this is something that would take a painful amount of rewriting to change now, so I don't recommend it. Basically, you could have let Yuki keep her memory, but still placed her under Shadow Tribe control. They could have grilled her for information and, being unable to resist commands, she could have spilled the beans on Haruhi's unconscious control of her abilities. Basically, the Shadow Tribe detects Haruhi's power, they ask Yuki about it, and then all their assumptions later on make sense.
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Sorry for the long wait, but Chapter 14 is up... http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9120758&posted=1#post9120758
This chapter will feature two prominent one-on-one fights! I hope that you enjoy them both! ^_^V
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Hm...I'm not sure what exactly it is about this chapter, but I feel like it's one of your best thus far. It might just be my ego talking since I can see where you've taken Spanner's and my feedback to heart, but things really seemed to come together well here. Galus's explanation does a decent job of dispelling the confusion over his orders in the previous update, and Mikuru's role had me genuinely cheering for her. It's surprisingly nice to see her stand up and act assertive for a change. The battle between her and Yuki was entertaining too, and it's interesting to watch Yuki make sense of the situation and begin to attempt to reason her way to freedom. And Dr. Tofu? Heh, I didn't expect Jinnai to be a Ranma 1/2 fan.
Regardless, Jinnai's delusions about Makoto were an intelligent way to further Haruhi's misconceptions of El-Hazard and set-up the chapter's second battle. And what this fight lacked in destructive power it made up for in hilarity. For some reason Makoto and Haruhi's references to being top gym students made me laugh, and the images of Haruhi jump kicking Makoto and the two of them duking it out struck me as funny in a ridiculous (but good!) way. It's also amusing to see some of Jinnai's mannerisms rub off on Haruhi.
Additionally, I'm touched that you've listened to some of my advice about fight scenes and I think it's helping, but I'd also recommend using hyphens instead of commas to interrupt action with dialogue. Hyphens tend to offer a more abrupt and forceful break than commas which are more often associated with pauses.
So, instead of:
"That..." began Yuki Nagato, as she began to engage in rapid fire blasts of white pulsating energy at Mikuru, "is where you are," resulting in Mikuru screaming in dissonance while thrown about violently by the blasts, failing to dodge them outright, "wrong, Mikuru."
Perhaps this?
"That..." began Yuki Nagato, as she began to engage in rapid fire blasts of white pulsating energy at Mikuru- "...is where you are..." -resulting in Mikuru screaming in dissonance while thrown about violently by the blasts, failing to dodge them outright. "...wrong, Mikuru."
Other than that, I don't have much more to say about this update. It was a pleasant read, and you also continue to surprise me with the direction the story takes. I assumed that the Phantom Tribe's master plan would take center-stage by now but it looks like you still have a couple chapters left before the finale. Good luck with your writing.
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Chapter 15 is up!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9137742&posted=1#post9137742
Special note - for anyone who hasn't read Chapter 14, you'll need to get it on the page before the one that comes up in the link above.
Now, unto my reply to rowan, and questions for both rowan and Spanner and anybody else who wants to offer advice on it! :)
Hm...I'm not sure what exactly it is about this chapter, but I feel like it's one of your best thus far. It might just be my ego talking since I can see where you've taken Spanner's and my feedback to heart, but things really seemed to come together well here. Galus's explanation does a decent job of dispelling the confusion over his orders in the previous update, and Mikuru's role had me genuinely cheering for her. It's surprisingly nice to see her stand up and act assertive for a change. The battle between her and Yuki was entertaining too, and it's interesting to watch Yuki make sense of the situation and begin to attempt to reason her way to freedom. And Dr. Tofu? Heh, I didn't expect Jinnai to be a Ranma 1/2 fan.
Well, it was either Dr. Tofu, or Professor Tomoe, and I felt the latter was too obvious a rip-off. ;) Kudos on getting the obscure Ranma 1/2 reference! ;D
Special Note: I almost had Tatewaki Kuno, the Blue Thunder of the Bugrom Empire (i.e. a crazily skilled bugrom that Jinnai would have trained in wooden blade use to counter the magnetic Kyon)
Special Note 2: I'm basically writing this fanfic for five people - you, Spanner, two big Jinnai fans on other boards, and myself. At least one of the two big Jinnai fans is totally on-board with Jinnai/Haruhi, so that's cool - odd since he's not a big Haruhi fan, either.
Satisfying the Jinnai fans probably isn't going to be a problem - so I can focus more on making this fanfic enjoyable for you and Spanner. :)
Regardless, Jinnai's delusions about Makoto were an intelligent way to further Haruhi's misconceptions of El-Hazard and set-up the chapter's second battle. And what this fight lacked in destructive power it made up for in hilarity. For some reason Makoto and Haruhi's references to being top gym students made me laugh, and the images of Haruhi jump kicking Makoto and the two of them duking it out struck me as funny in a ridiculous (but good!) way. It's also amusing to see some of Jinnai's mannerisms rub off on Haruhi.
I'm very glad that you approved of all of that! I wanted to play Makoto vs. Haruhi in a way that hardcore fans of either could take the fight seriously if they wanted to... but that the fight would have comedic elements as well for people who couldn't take it quite as seriously as Mikuru vs. Yuki. ;)
Additionally, I'm touched that you've listened to some of my advice about fight scenes and I think it's helping, but I'd also recommend using hyphens instead of commas to interrupt action with dialogue. Hyphens tend to offer a more abrupt and forceful break than commas which are more often associated with pauses.
So, instead of:
"That..." began Yuki Nagato, as she began to engage in rapid fire blasts of white pulsating energy at Mikuru, "is where you are," resulting in Mikuru screaming in dissonance while thrown about violently by the blasts, failing to dodge them outright, "wrong, Mikuru."
Perhaps this?
"That..." began Yuki Nagato, as she began to engage in rapid fire blasts of white pulsating energy at Mikuru- "...is where you are..." -resulting in Mikuru screaming in dissonance while thrown about violently by the blasts, failing to dodge them outright. "...wrong, Mikuru."
Other than that, I don't have much more to say about this update. It was a pleasant read, and you also continue to surprise me with the direction the story takes. I assumed that the Phantom Tribe's master plan would take center-stage by now but it looks like you still have a couple chapters left before the finale. Good luck with your writing.
Thanks for all the great advice. Onomatopoeia is something that had totally slipped my mind, and as you suggested, it works well for fights with dialogue involved. In fact, it adds a comic book-esque feel to the fights which I like.
Now, a few things I want to cover, and ask, at this juncture of the fanfic...
The latest update (Chapter 15) is going to be pretty talk-heavy and filled with exposition. That was unfortunately unavoidable. Furthermore, I found that to make room for the key conversations in it, a lot of characters are going with out lines unfortunately.
The plot will really begin to clump together over the next few chapters (4 to 6 are now left, I'd say), and that may require less lines for some characters. With that in mind, I have the following questions for you and Spanner...
1) Is there any particular character that you feel I haven't given enough lines to given their importance within the El Hazard anime or within the Haruhi Suzumiya anime?
2) Would you prefer decompressed story-telling or compressed story-telling the rest of the way? The following scenes are on the bubble, so to speak, depending on your answer...
- A scene in which almost all of the protagonists talk amongst themselves about the Haruhi/Jinnai relationship/situation and how it impacts on the broader Alliance/Bugrom situation.
- A poignant Jinnai/Groucho scene that will take place AFTER the big confrontation between Haruhi and Jinnai.
- A Fatora/Haruhi comedy scene
- The length and size and style of the Haruhi/Rune Venus/Fatora peace negotiation
Which of the above would you like for me to keep, and which are you willing to shed in order to get a quicker resolution (unless you're fine with six more chapters of course)?
Anyway, I just want to add a special note to Spanner - thanks a lot for liking my take on Queen Diva! I did indeed spend a lot of time on her in this fanfic. I felt that she was a bit underdeveloped in the Magnificent World canon.
Anyway, Chapter 16 will be the big one - it's the big confrontation between fully aware Haruhi Suzumiya and antagonist Katsuhiko Jinnai. Will Jinnai turn Haruhi into a villain, will Haruhi reform Jinnai into a hero, or will the Bugrom Empire descend into civil war? ;)
And what will it mean for the Haruhi/Jinnai shipping?
Well, that's all for now! I look forward to your reply on the chapter and answers to my questions.
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All right, I've taken a look at chapters 14 and 15, and here are my thoughts:
Chapter 14:
All told, I enjoyed Chapter 14 quite a bit!
You resolved the situation with Yuki (basically, how the heck Haruhi was going to escape a determined Demon God) quite well, with the unveiling of Mikuru's new MIKURU BEEEEAM! It does stand to reason that the awesome power of the Mikuru Beam could be enough to damage a Demon God - and that Galus wouldn't want to risk the loss of such a powerful asset so soon.
I definitely enjoy Yuki's dialogue, and also her self-analysis. You've done a great job of keeping her in-character. It's good to see her still working hard to find loopholes around her Demon-God-related slavery. I was also glad to see how quick Galus was in picking up on her attempts to stall his orders.
As for Mikuru's power, I'll admit that it was pretty predictable that that would be Mikuru's power, but honestly, it's just too amusing for me to complain about it. ^_^V
I do have one complaint, but it's more a gripe against the comic industry (or, heck, pop fiction in general) than against your story. Jinnai, predictably, is back from the dead. While this didn't surprise me, he's the third character in this story to miraculously recover from lethal injury (the first being Galus, and the second Itsuki). It's really quite annoying how the popular trend is for characters to be resurrected at the whims of the author. Frankly, it makes death a cheap trick. It's hard to place any emotional weight on a death when you know the author is going to bring a character back in the next chapter - and even if the author throws in a twist and the character is REALLY dead, the emotional hit doesn't show up until the death confirmation. The actual death itself still isn't very moving.
Anyway, my position is this: If you aren't going to kill off a character FOR REALZ, don't bother doing it at all unless there's a really good plot-related reason. If it's just to try to shock the audience, don't bother. Now, that obviously wasn't the case here - something nasty had to happen to Jinnai to set Haruhi off. But the Itsuki thing earlier just seemed kinda pointless.
Moving on, I was amused by the Ranma 1/2 cameo in the Bugrom doctor, Tofu. Given that Jinnai names his Bugrom, it seems likely he's a Ranma fan as well. ;D
I enjoyed Haruhi's first taste of a full-blown Mizuhara rant (kinda makes me wonder if, as a Ranma 1/2 fan, Jinnai relates to Ryoga?), and very much enjoyed the fight she got into with Makoto as a result. Yes, it was definitely a battle in Haruhi's favor. To be honest, I wouldn't have put big money on Makoto even if he wasn't holding back. Haruhi's the type to fight DIRTY. XD
Speaking of that fight, I found it to be quite amusing, as well. It's not often that you see a low-powered, ordinary hand-to-hand battle in El-Hazard. They're usally all about the energy blasts, and super martial arts, and what have you. Two high-schoolers slugging it out turned out to be pretty awesome in its uniqueness!
Chapter 15:
To be honest, the start of chapter 15 caught me a bit by surprise. I expected you to carry the masquerade a bit further, but you actually sat Haruhi down and had her listen to the good guys for a while. Listen, and actually learn the truth (or, rather, an expanded view on the truth).
I was a bit bemused at the Roshtarian guard who dismissed Haruhi as a threat due to the fact that she's just a young girl - in particular considering that a young boy not much older has the well-deserved title of war criminal. Oh well - no reason there can't be double standards in Roshtaria just as there are on our world!
Still, they did have Makoto vouching for her, so it's not too odd that they left her in his hands. I was amused at Makoto's willingness to forgive and forget the beating he took at Haruhi's hands. That's definitely in-character for him.
I enjoyed Haruhi's and Nanami's heart-to-heart about Jinnai - especially Nanami's barely restrained incredulity that anyone could fall for that crazy wierdo freak. This is probably the one place that I'd have forgiven you for Nanami to lose her upbeat attitude and just go ballistic - but it works even better this way, I think, with Nanami trying to be sympethetic. I especially enjoyed Haruhi's favorable comparison between the siblings, and Nanami's grudging admission that she has a point.
Haruhi's realization that Jinnai was a kindred spirit in wanting to change the world to suit his desires was a cool analogy, too. The desire to save him just as she herself had been "saved" by Kyon was a nice touch as well.
Two chapters of almost uniformly good stuff! My only real gripe was the "Oh my God you killed Kenny - juuuuust kidding!" you pulled with Jinnai, and even that wasn't wholely out-of-place. I look forward to seeing how Jinnai deals with Haruhi now that she wants to prevent his goals of world conquest (or, at least, of world conquest through violent means).
I'm also feeling just a bit sorry for the Shadow Tribe, now that they have been revealed as the masterminds behind Haruhi's woes. The forecast doesn't look good for them at all...
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1) Is there any particular character that you feel I haven't given enough lines to given their importance within the El Hazard anime or within the Haruhi Suzumiya anime?
Not really that I can think of. There are some characters that have been "underrepresented" I guess you could say... but it's like I said before. Just because you have a huge cast doesn't mean you should feel obligated to shoehorn them all in.
Your story has done a pretty good job of spotlighting the characters that are actually central to the plot. Haruhi, Jinnai, Makoto, and Kyon are pretty much the star players in this particular drama, so it isn't a crime that Mikuru, Itsuki, the priestesses, and so on don't barge into every conversation.
2) Would you prefer decompressed story-telling or compressed story-telling the rest of the way? The following scenes are on the bubble, so to speak, depending on your answer...
I'm not really sure what you mean by "decompressed" vs "compressed", but I will say that "compressed" has the ominous sound of trying to fit too much into too little. Write the story in the way that feels best; don't feel like you have to please the audience by rushing to the "good stuff". In fact, I'm a HUGE fan of writing what you want and telling the audience to go screw themselves if they don't like it. While the author should always feel free to grow and develop based on audience criticizm, they should never feel obligated to slavishly bend to the audience's every whim.
Still, here's my opinions on your proposed scenes:
- A scene in which almost all of the protagonists talk amongst themselves about the Haruhi/Jinnai relationship/situation and how it impacts on the broader Alliance/Bugrom situation.
Sounds a bit boring, but could be a very important foundation for the alliance's eventual "forgiveness" of Jinnai, assuming that you DO intend to have Haruhi reform him. Noting how Jinnai's health and freedom could be important factors in establishing a lasting peace between Roshtaria and the Bugrom might be an important thing to establish early on.
- A poignant Jinnai/Groucho scene that will take place AFTER the big confrontation between Haruhi and Jinnai.
It's always great to see Jinnai getting sentimental. It's hard to tell if this is, strictly speaking, "necessary" or not; that all depends on what you plan on developing from it.
- A Fatora/Haruhi comedy scene
Honestly, this sounds like a riot. I'm honestly not sure how Haruhi would react. A lot of Haruhi fandom believes that Haruhi's probably bisexual, and it might be very amusing to see her turn the "predator" Fatora into the prey. I wanna see Haruhi nibbling on Fatora's ear and forcing her into cosplay outfits. :D
- The length and size and style of the Haruhi/Rune Venus/Fatora peace negotiation
Not too enthused about this one. I don't think a tremendous amount of screen time should be devoted to it. It does have some potential for helping to showcase just how hurt the Alliance has been by the Bugrom and how deep their grudges go.
Which of the above would you like for me to keep, and which are you willing to shed in order to get a quicker resolution (unless you're fine with six more chapters of course)?
Again, tell the story how it needs to be told, not the way your audience wants it to be told. Six more chapters? Sure, if that's what it takes!
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And the Haruhi/Jinnai verbal showdown of Chapter 16 is complete!:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9149989&posted=1#post9149989
Hate to say it, but that showdown took so long to do justice to (I felt), that there's not much else besides it. ^^;
A few notes to Spanner - It's funny, but I strongly agree with you on how overly common and cheap deaths/resurrections have become in comic books and pop fiction in general.
I will promise you this - if any other character in my story dies, he or she will stay dead! ;)
I had my reasons for how I chose to handle Galus and Itsuki, but all the same... I get your points loud and clear. I will say that having Haruhi as a character is a bit of a temptation for a writer - you feel empowered by having an almost literal deus ex machina character to do whatever you want.
I'll try to be more careful there.
All the same, I'm really pleased and pleasantly surprised that you liked Chapters 14 and 15 so much! I'm particularly glad that Haruhi's dialogue is coming across Ok. Showing her softer side is tricky, and it's obviously necessary for a story involving her in a romance, so I hope that I'm capturing her character fairly well.
As you wrote, her, Jinnai, Makoto, and Kyon are the four key characters of this story (probably with Yuki and Galus coming close behind). Considering that's the two main protagonists of one anime, and the main protagonist and main antagonist of the other anime, that sounds about right to me anyway. :)
Anyway... I look forward to your take on Chapter 16!
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All right, Chapter 16!
First off, let me say that I LOVED Jinnai's attempt to seduce Haruhi to the ways of Pure Evil Genius! His arguments were very compelling, and I loved seeing Haruhi's face mashed into the realization that her own methods tend to creep awfully far over the good/evil line from time to time.
(Just a nit I'd like to pick: you mentioned that the Computer Club president was tricked into touching Haruhi's breasts... actually, Haruhi tricked him into appearing to molest Mikuru, not Haruhi herself.)
Haruhi's counterargument was equally well presented, and Jinnai's insertion of the whole Makoto aspect was well-placed. If there was any weakness at all to be found, it was that Jinnai seemed to accept the idea of turning to a life of scientific exploration a bit too easily. It wasn't totally clear how such a thing would enable him to one-up Makoto, which, as he had just mentioned, seemed to be at the heart of his whole motivation.
(After I thought about it for a bit, I suddenly realized how this COULD enable him to trump Makoto once and for all, and a rather delicious victory at that. If you want me to share my idea, I'll send you a PM; there's certainly a strong chance it's already something you have in mind.)
And then... Haruhi pushes things just too far, and Jinnai plunges back into the Dark Side! But Haruhi won't stand for it! It's a clash of wills like none other!
Then, at the end, some more Mwahahah villiany courtesy of Galus, with sad snow girl Yuki putting up with his cruelty. Not as awesome as the Haruhi/Jinnai scene, but still good.
This is a good example of a "talky" chapter that still keeps the audience riveted. There wasn't even a scrap of action to be had the whole chapter, but it was still a very good read.
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All right, Chapter 16!
First off, let me say that I LOVED Jinnai's attempt to seduce Haruhi to the ways of Pure Evil Genius! His arguments were very compelling, and I loved seeing Haruhi's face mashed into the realization that her own methods tend to creep awfully far over the good/evil line from time to time.
Thanks a lot!
(Just a nit I'd like to pick: you mentioned that the Computer Club president was tricked into touching Haruhi's breasts... actually, Haruhi tricked him into appearing to molest Mikuru, not Haruhi herself.)
Thanks for the correction - I made a slight edit to Jinnai's speech because of it.
Haruhi's counterargument was equally well presented, and Jinnai's insertion of the whole Makoto aspect was well-placed. If there was any weakness at all to be found, it was that Jinnai seemed to accept the idea of turning to a life of scientific exploration a bit too easily. It wasn't totally clear how such a thing would enable him to one-up Makoto, which, as he had just mentioned, seemed to be at the heart of his whole motivation.
Yeah, I'd agree that was the weakest aspect of the Haruhi/Jinnai confrontation. I wanted Haruhi's argument to be something that greatly reflected her own exploratory interests, and that Jinnai would at least find palatable; but not necessarily awe-inspiring.
I wasn't sure how much I should invest Haruhi into helping Jinnai one-up Makoto for the sheer sake of one-upping Makoto.
(After I thought about it for a bit, I suddenly realized how this COULD enable him to trump Makoto once and for all, and a rather delicious victory at that. If you want me to share my idea, I'll send you a PM; there's certainly a strong chance it's already something you have in mind.)
Yes, I'd love to hear your idea. I have a bit of an idea of what it could be, but just to make sure...
And then... Haruhi pushes things just too far, and Jinnai plunges back into the Dark Side!
Generally speaking, I don't like easy reformations. I tend to find them unrealistic... at least when dealing with psyches as messed up as Jinnai's, or your typical anime/comic book villain for that matter.
I prefer reformations to be something that is gradually arrived at with some significant effort.
But Haruhi won't stand for it! It's a clash of wills like none other!
Then, at the end, some more Mwahahah villiany courtesy of Galus, with sad snow girl Yuki putting up with his cruelty. Not as awesome as the Haruhi/Jinnai scene, but still good.
This is a good example of a "talky" chapter that still keeps the audience riveted. There wasn't even a scrap of action to be had the whole chapter, but it was still a very good read.
Thanks!
The likely layout here on out...
Next Chapter - Probably a touch of comedy and setting up the big multi-part finale, actually
Rest of the chapters - Action, action, and more action! ;)
By the way, I forgot to mention it before, but I agree with your Jinnai and Ryoga comparison. Actually, when I saw Ryoga getting mad with Ranma for butting in front of him in school recess lines, I immediately thought of Jinnai and Makoto. ;D
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2) Would you prefer decompressed story-telling or compressed story-telling the rest of the way? The following scenes are on the bubble, so to speak, depending on your answer...
- A scene in which almost all of the protagonists talk amongst themselves about the Haruhi/Jinnai relationship/situation and how it impacts on the broader Alliance/Bugrom situation.
- A poignant Jinnai/Groucho scene that will take place AFTER the big confrontation between Haruhi and Jinnai.
- A Fatora/Haruhi comedy scene
- The length and size and style of the Haruhi/Rune Venus/Fatora peace negotiation
Which of the above would you like for me to keep, and which are you willing to shed in order to get a quicker resolution (unless you're fine with six more chapters of course)?
I essentially agree with Spanner on this matter. All of these scenes could be worth including depending on how they fit into the larger story and, conversely, could be extraneous subject to their handling. Include as many or as few as you think the story calls for and you feel like writing.
As for my thoughts on the prospective scenes themselves, you've already touched upon some of the reactions to Haruhi and Jinnai's relationship, at least among the characters it affects the most (i.e. Kyon, Nanami, and Makoto), so an entire scene dedicated to covering what the rest of the massive cast thinks about it could be a bit superfluous. Even if there's some new dynamic or development the scene would introduce, using Kyon's narrative to recap a condensed version could be more effective. On the other hand, it's an opportunity to showcase some of the less prominent characters in this story and could be a strong segue-way into the rest of a chapter.
Depending on how you want to bring Jinnai back into the story, a poignant scene between him and Groucho could be useful. Groucho probably knows Jinnai better than anyone and might be able to frame current circumstances in a way that'll sway him to Haruhi's point of view or, at the very least, act as the sounding board Jinnai needs to realize that Haruhi's likely walking into another trap. After all, if he was hoping to strike a serious blow against the Alliance a peace summit would be too good an opportunity to pass up (a la Wanderers), and assuming he knows now that the Phantom Tribe was behind the earlier assassination attempt on Haruhi...well, Jinnai's devious and intelligent enough to figure out what'll probably happen.
The Fatora/Haruhi comedy scene...it sounds promising, but it might fit in better after the climax. It sounds like you're already going to have a lot going on with the negotiations, and while Fatora might be irresponsible enough to gallivant around when serious diplomacy is called for this is one of those occasions I can see Rune being firm to ensure that a peace treaty isn't sidetracked.
As for the negotiation itself, showcasing it directly has plusses and minuses. Doing it justice could require massive amounts of dialogue and potentially a host of original characters to serve as nobles/diplomats, but on the other hand the subject matter isn't necessarily uninteresting and it might be compelling to see Haruhi defend the Bugrom Empire and Jinnai (and attempt to explain that the second invasion of Gannon was a "misunderstanding" ^^; ). Alternatively, this might be a good spot to showcase the supporting cast and their opinions on recent developments while the negotiations go on in the background.
Anyway, onto the feedback for the chapters. Spanner already covered most of the main points for Chapter 15, so I'll simply repeat that the analogy you made here between Haruhi and Jinnai's desires to reshape the world was very striking. Those two really do have more in common than one might think at first glance. Kyon's rationality and evenhandedness even when he had practically every reason to be upset with Haruhi also struck me as a nice and believable reaction on his part, and his willingness to put the important details aside and simply take a few moments to celebrate being reunited with friends was touching. And, as Spanner said, Makoto's quick-to-forgive-and-trust approach to Haruhi seemed very in-character for him. I enjoyed reading Nanami's conversation with the new Bugrom Queen too. Your depiction of her has improved, in my opinion. My only nitpick here is the use of the name Winston de Gaulle for a Bugrom human collaborator. I understand that it's ironic, but considering the roles the real Winston Churchill and Charles de Gaulle played in history it also seems almost...disrespectful to me.
Regardless, Chapter 16 was another good update. Jinnai and Haruhi's conversation revealed several salient insights into the minds and personas of both characters, the two that perhaps stood out the most to me being just how appallingly similar some of Haruhi's past actions are to Jinnai's mindset and Jinnai's compulsive need to one-up Makoto, even if it's by becoming the villain to his hero. I'm not entirely certain if OVA Jinnai would outright call himself evil or the villain, though. While Wanderers Jinnai (and Diva too, for that matter) enjoy playing the parts of evil overlord and grand villainy, OVA Jinnai struck me more as...well, arrogant and delusional enough that he truly believes he is the destined Messenger of God and fated to conquer El-Hazard rather than viewing himself as a criminal evildoer. Then again, a Wanderers-type interpretation of his OVA-self is also quite feasible, and in some ways you've combined the best of the two worlds in this story. The dialogue here was certainly quite compelling for the most part, and it's a positive testament that the dearth of action didn't bore me at all.
I think you also made a good choice in closing the chapter with another Phantom Tribe scene. After the defeat of their seeming "master plan" earlier I was wondering how they'd remain the central antagonists, and it's reassuringly ominous that they appear to have a final gambit prepared (kind of like how they sabotaged the Eye of God in OVA1 so even if their own attempt to use it didn't work the world would still be in peril). Galus and Nahato also both came across as less bland to me, though that might be a result of their schemes starting to reach fruition. Either way, you have me both looking forward to seeing what they have planned and what's next for the protagonists. Thanks for sharing.
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Sorry about the wait, but the length of Chapter 17 might make up for it... ;) ^^;
Here it is!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=6
Special Notes: I've created a heck of a lot of El Hazard nations out of thin air, since the only ones I know of are Roshtaria, Gannan, and Durasland (and three nations just doesn't seem like enough to me). If, however, there are actual canon El Hazard nations that I'm forgetting, I'll gladly put them in place in some of the fanfic nation names I'll come up with. So, I'm all ears there!
Also, I decided to throw just about everything into Chapter 17 after all. I just felt that the El Hazard protagonist cast hadn't been showcased properly in a long time, and that it was time to change that. I hope that I succeeded there. Also, I was actually experimenting with a Jinnai/Groucho scene - not even sure if I was going to include it - and a part of it was too good to leave out, I felt.
Rowan - I'm going to type up a reply to you tomorrow. In the meantime, though, how does Pierre Chamberlain sound as a replacement name for Winston de Gaulle? ;)
Pierre is there just because I like that name, by the way.
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Chapter 17...
This one started off a little bit weak. While Nanami's amazement of the progress Haruhi has made with her brother was interesting in chapter 15, seeing it again here seemed like it might be rehashing it a bit too much.
I was also a bit befuddled at the inclusion of Ranma Saotome as the identity of Nanami's childhood tormentor. Her description of the bully doesn't seem to match the personality of the original Ranma very closely. While I don't place Ranma on the glorious pedestal some fanfiction authors do, there's definitely certain depths he won't step to. He's more inclined to beat up bullies than be a bully himself, and the only girl he ever (deliberately) picks on is Akane - and his reasons for picking on her are pretty complicated.
So, the way that it comes across is that you created a character, and then just slapped on a popular character's name for the heck of it. That's not very good practice; if you're going to include an obvious cameo name, it ought to at least slightly match the character.
To be honest, I had the same beef with Nanoha when she was first introduced as a heartless assassin; it's like you were just assigning a popular name for no good reason. Eventually Nanoha developed a bit and became a character that resembled her cameo source to a degree, so it wasn't so bad.
If you're going to cameo a character's name, you really ought to include a bit of of the character's CHARACTER as well. Otherwise, as in my case, the reader will become confused.
In this particular case, if you were going to create a bully character, and you really wanted to plug Ranma 1/2, you might have wanted to consider using a Ranma character that actually IS a bully - Pantyhose Tarou, for instance (though he's a little bit of an obscure character).
Anyway, that's five paragraphs devoted to one little throwaway chunk of the story, so I'll move on. :P
I was slightly disappointed with the Jinnai/Groucho scene. I assume this is the heart-to-heart you mentioned as a potential scene? It seemed more like Groucho talking at Jinnai and him railing at the world and wrestling with his own inner turmoil. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting from this scene - and it may be far more appropriate that Jinnai be able to work things through on his own than have a heart-to-heart anyway. Meh, I don't know what I'm saying; it's just a bit off, somehow. (Gawd, that's the most useless kind of criticism!)
I was a bit lukewarm when you originally presented the idea of doing the peace summit on-screen, but this section actually turned out to be pretty entertaining. You did a pretty good job of creating interesting leaders to share their viewpoints. (I also chuckled a bit at the inclusion of "Megraton of Cyberia" as an aggressive and vengeful ruler; it was a cute cameo, and much more appropriate than the Ranma Saotome one.)
(Oh, as a bit of a nitpick, the onset of the meeting seemed to indicate that Rune and Fatora were the only females present. In the summit that occurred during the first episode of the OAV, though, there was at least one other female leader that I can recall; there may have been more, as well.)
Then, the terrorist incursion. I rolled my eyes a bit when one of the terrorist's whipped out a "wooden knife stick" to counter Kyon's magnetic powers. It just sounds so silly. I think a bit of research here might have been in order to pick an ACTUAL non-metal weapon. Or even just not to have mentioned the special traits of the weapon at all. Something like this, perhaps:
"Duke!" shouted the leader of the Black Knights of Zala to one of his men, "Take out the alien magnet man! Use your knife!"
A knife? Hah, how is that any better than a bullet? One of the Black Knights that had previously been trying to kill Haruhi leapt towards me, holding a blade in his hands. When I tried to stop him, I suddenly realized his plan - the knife was made of glass! And he was about to strike me down with it! It took all of my concentration to simply hold back the guns and gunfire of the Black Knights... I was in no position to defend myself in close quarters combat on top of that. Thankfully, I didn't need to...
I also took a page from Niel Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and made the knife from glass rather than wood; it's hard to imagine a slashing weapon made from wood being all that terribly effective. Of course, a glass knife would be harder to set on fire. Perhaps a wooden spear would be a better choice of weapon, or even a club. A "wooden knife stick" is honestly kind of hard to even picture. I kept imagining that the guy pulled out an ordinary twig that had had the end shaved to a point for roasting marshmallows. XD
Then, Yuki appears and Haruhi transforms into Ifurita to fight her! And... gets utterly schooled before she can even make a move. Yuki seems to be pretty scarily powerful. If Galus know's Yuki is capable of this kind of thing, why doesn't he just have her slaughter all the good guys except for Haruhi? I honestly can't see any way that his plans can be anything but helped by the elimination of our heroes, and the summit leaders for good measure. This kind of thing is a bit troublesome in comic books, as well; the authors give the villians AMAZING powers that they could use to do pretty much whatever they want - and then send them off to rob a bank. ^^;
Hopefully you have some reason in mind as to why Galus is holding back. And hopefully that reason goes beyond merely wanting to have the heroes broken at his feet so he can gloat at them.
Anyway, all in all I'm afraid I have to say this chapter was a bit weaker than many of the ones you've done, especially when compared to the entertaining previous chapter. Still, the plot rolls on. I look forward to seeing what you have in mind now that Galus is luring our heroes (and possibly Jinnai, as well?) into his trap!
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Edit: To make up for the bad chapter, Spanner, I'm going to share with you a (hopefully) comedic vid that I made a long time ago actually... but which actually kind of fits well with the mood of most of this fanfic. Funny how the idea for this fanfic came a long time after I decided to make this vid...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8thmGjj6QI&feature=channel_page
Note: An anime called Shakugan no Shana is also featured in the vid - for the purposes of this thread the first 18 seconds are the most important.
I hate to say it, Spanner, but I'm kind of disappointed at your disappointment.
Not a word on the Fatora/Alielle/Haruhi bit? The tip of the hat to your Kyon/Fatora suggestions to me? Or Sensei Fujisawa's heroics for Haruhi?
All of that was written with you in mind - especially the Fatora/Alielle/Haruhi scene.
And... wow... you and Rowan both care a lot about original character names. With Nanoha Inverse I can kind of understand it - she's an important character in the story - but the Ranma in my story is just a flashback character with out any lines at all.
Furthermore, Ranma has fought more girls than Akane. He's also fought Shampoo, Kodachi Kuno, Ukyo, Mariko, etc...
I can personally conceive of a younger Ranma - a Ranma raised brutally by Genma - being a bit of a bully. Certainly, he wasn't exactly nice to Ryoga, was he?
You and Rowan seemed to be pretty big Ranma fans, and hence I thought you'd like the little cameo name. Also, it's obviously not the real Ranma, or Makoto would not have beat him. The Ranma name was just for a little laugh - I never expected you to take it so seriously. I guess I was wrong there.
As for the knife stick - It's this:
http://www.brethart.com/files/images/bigbossman.thumbnail.jpg
Some people in law enforcement use a tough blunt instrument called a knife stick (like the one this pro wrestler based on law enforcement officers uses) in trying to subdue criminals. A wooden knife stick is a blunt weapon, not a cutting one - a wooden blunt weapon can still be effective, just like a baseball bat used as a weapon can be.
As for Yuki... Spanner, I already showed her getting defeated (or at least forced to retreat) by Sensei Fujisawa and Mikuru Asahina; I thought it was about time that Yuki actually won a fight outright for a change. What would make you think that Yuki could defeat all of the El Hazard protagonists given her earlier defeats at the hands of Fujisawa and Mikuru? Beyond that, there's no good reason whatsoever for Galus to think that Yuki could single-handedly defeat all of the El Hazard protagonists given Yuki's problems with Fujisawa and Mikuru. Hence Galus' entire theory is that there's too many powerful variables on the protagonist side, so instead of trying to always fight them on their home turf where his level of control is limited, he's trying to drag them to HIS home turf where his level of control is considerably greater. It makes perfectly good sense to me.
In fact, the Black Knights of Zala were set up to distract as many of the El Hazard protagonists as possible so Yuki could zoom in on Haruhi, and take her captive, with out having to hopelessly try to fight all of the El Hazard protagonists.
Yes, Yuki can time freeze and data drain, but who knows how much those moves drains her - and if it leaves her with much power left to fight on with?
Also, Yuki defeated Haruhi in part because Haruhi hesitated. An El Hazard protagonist may not have hesitated.
Canon Yuki, IIRC, has commented on how using time freeze drains her. It's also clear that she had to expand a lot of effort to data drain Ryoko Asakura.
As for re-hashed scenes - I consider it important character and plot development. I'm also developing a friendship between Haruhi and Nanami - you don't do that in one short scene in one chapter. All of this is also to try to make up for my earlier problems with Nanami that you yourself pointed out.
Also, I simply felt that the beginning with Haruhi and Nanami was the most believable way for the story to progress.
And as for the Jinnai scene - maybe I should have left that out. The key with that scene, for me, was to hammer home the fact that Haruhi now means as much to Jinnai as Makoto does - only in a diametrically opposing way, of course. I hoped that contrasting positive memories that Jinnai has of Haruhi with the well-established negative memories that Jinnai has of Makoto would do a good job of that. I had hoped that it would prove to be striking, and furthermore, I felt that it would serve to put the fanfic into broader perspective.
Edit: This is NOT the Jinnai/Groucho heart-to-heart that I was talking about. THAT discussion is coming up in the next chapter. This scene was mostly to show Jinnai's inner thinking.
All of this said, though - I thank you for continuing to read and review my fanfic. I actually felt that Chapter 17 was my best chapter - I felt that it had action, comedy, drama, touching character interactions on the protagonist side, lines for almost every named canon character featured in the fanfic, good in-fanfic character development for several characters. I'm genuinely taken aback by your almost uniformly negative review of the chapter.
Oh well - you liked Chapter 15 way more than I thought you would (I myself thought you'd call it a filler chapter) and now you disliked Chapter 17 (by far the most eventful chapters of all of them) way more than I thought you would.
Chapter 17...
This one started off a little bit weak. While Nanami's amazement of the progress Haruhi has made with her brother was interesting in chapter 15, seeing it again here seemed like it might be rehashing it a bit too much.
I was also a bit befuddled at the inclusion of Ranma Saotome as the identity of Nanami's childhood tormentor. Her description of the bully doesn't seem to match the personality of the original Ranma very closely. While I don't place Ranma on the glorious pedestal some fanfiction authors do, there's definitely certain depths he won't step to. He's more inclined to beat up bullies than be a bully himself, and the only girl he ever (deliberately) picks on is Akane - and his reasons for picking on her are pretty complicated.
So, the way that it comes across is that you created a character, and then just slapped on a popular character's name for the heck of it. That's not very good practice; if you're going to include an obvious cameo name, it ought to at least slightly match the character.
To be honest, I had the same beef with Nanoha when she was first introduced as a heartless assassin; it's like you were just assigning a popular name for no good reason. Eventually Nanoha developed a bit and became a character that resembled her cameo source to a degree, so it wasn't so bad.
If you're going to cameo a character's name, you really ought to include a bit of of the character's CHARACTER as well. Otherwise, as in my case, the reader will become confused.
In this particular case, if you were going to create a bully character, and you really wanted to plug Ranma 1/2, you might have wanted to consider using a Ranma character that actually IS a bully - Pantyhose Tarou, for instance (though he's a little bit of an obscure character).
Anyway, that's five paragraphs devoted to one little throwaway chunk of the story, so I'll move on. :P
I was slightly disappointed with the Jinnai/Groucho scene. I assume this is the heart-to-heart you mentioned as a potential scene? It seemed more like Groucho talking at Jinnai and him railing at the world and wrestling with his own inner turmoil. To be honest, I'm not sure exactly what I was expecting from this scene - and it may be far more appropriate that Jinnai be able to work things through on his own than have a heart-to-heart anyway. Meh, I don't know what I'm saying; it's just a bit off, somehow. (Gawd, that's the most useless kind of criticism!)
I was a bit lukewarm when you originally presented the idea of doing the peace summit on-screen, but this section actually turned out to be pretty entertaining. You did a pretty good job of creating interesting leaders to share their viewpoints. (I also chuckled a bit at the inclusion of "Megraton of Cyberia" as an aggressive and vengeful ruler; it was a cute cameo, and much more appropriate than the Ranma Saotome one.)
(Oh, as a bit of a nitpick, the onset of the meeting seemed to indicate that Rune and Fatora were the only females present. In the summit that occurred during the first episode of the OAV, though, there was at least one other female leader that I can recall; there may have been more, as well.)
Then, the terrorist incursion. I rolled my eyes a bit when one of the terrorist's whipped out a "wooden knife stick" to counter Kyon's magnetic powers. It just sounds so silly. I think a bit of research here might have been in order to pick an ACTUAL non-metal weapon. Or even just not to have mentioned the special traits of the weapon at all. Something like this, perhaps:
I also took a page from Niel Stephenson's "Snow Crash" and made the knife from glass rather than wood; it's hard to imagine a slashing weapon made from wood being all that terribly effective. Of course, a glass knife would be harder to set on fire. Perhaps a wooden spear would be a better choice of weapon, or even a club. A "wooden knife stick" is honestly kind of hard to even picture. I kept imagining that the guy pulled out an ordinary twig that had had the end shaved to a point for roasting marshmallows. XD
Then, Yuki appears and Haruhi transforms into Ifurita to fight her! And... gets utterly schooled before she can even make a move. Yuki seems to be pretty scarily powerful. If Galus know's Yuki is capable of this kind of thing, why doesn't he just have her slaughter all the good guys except for Haruhi? I honestly can't see any way that his plans can be anything but helped by the elimination of our heroes, and the summit leaders for good measure. This kind of thing is a bit troublesome in comic books, as well; the authors give the villians AMAZING powers that they could use to do pretty much whatever they want - and then send them off to rob a bank. ^^;
Hopefully you have some reason in mind as to why Galus is holding back. And hopefully that reason goes beyond merely wanting to have the heroes broken at his feet so he can gloat at them.
Anyway, all in all I'm afraid I have to say this chapter was a bit weaker than many of the ones you've done, especially when compared to the entertaining previous chapter. Still, the plot rolls on. I look forward to seeing what you have in mind now that Galus is luring our heroes (and possibly Jinnai, as well?) into his trap!
Edit in reply for Rowan:
Concerning Jinnai in Chapter 16 - my perception of his character (OVA version especially) is a bit complex. I think that he honestly sees himself as the villain, at least in relation to how most view him. I don't think that he views this as incompatible with being the Messenger of God. I think that he has chosen that role since Makoto has made himself the hero; hence the best way to oppose Makoto is to either beat him at his own game (which Jinnai has given up on, I believe) or to rather be the villain to his hero.
Now, at the same time, he wants Haruhi to be his perfect ally. For his romance to work with her, and for him to continue to be the villain to Makoto's hero, Haruhi has to think of herself as a villain as well; otherwise, Haruhi and Jinnai have a moral alignment gap that simply can't be bridged.
Beyond that... IIRC, OVA Jinnai made the following line to Diva...
"Pure evil... <chuckles>... a good backup!" when referring to Ifurita, based on what Diva told him about her.
So that's my reasoning with Jinnai in Chapter 16.
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I'm sorry if my review of Chapter 17 upset you a bit. ^^; I had no idea that it was one that you were so proud of. Unfortunately, while I might have been able to be a little more tactful about it, I gotta call 'em as I see 'em.
Remember, though, that just because it didn't push my buttons in the way that you hoped doesn' t mean that the chapter is wrong or bad - just that I, personally, had trouble with it. Unless you know me extraordinarily well (and we haven't been communicating long enough for that to be possible), you're not going to be able to please me all the time. And that's perfectly okay.
That said, I wanted to respond to a couple of your counter arguments.
First off, the club you pictured is actually known as a "Nightstick", not a "Knife stick". An easy mistake to make if you've never actually read the term, but only heard it on television. Here's a Wiki article on the weapon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstick) There are many different varieties, but if you scroll about halfway down the Wiki page, you'll see a picture of the tonfa-style nightsticks you probably had in mind. Now that I know what weapon you had in mind, the scene seems a lot less silly. Yes, a nightstick would be an effective counter against Kyon.
As for the Ranma thing, perhaps I didn't explain my discomfort carefully enough. It might just be me, but in a story that already embraces the crossover concept, if we see a famous name pop up attached to a character that resembles the original holder of the name, then I smile and acknowledge the character. If the character does NOT resemble the original, then I want to know why - and with no explanation provided, I'm left confused and a bit irritated.
I acknowledge that there are many possible explanations as to why this Ranma Saotome is a bully. The original's actions certainly could SEEM like those of a bully at times - Ranma's "bullying" is pretty much Ryoga's whole motivation for following him, even if Ranma himself had no idea he was being a bully. (He was similarly "mean" to Ukyou, though she somehow made friends with him anyway.) Another explanation could be that this Ranma Saotome is just some poor guy whose sadistic parents named him after a manga character - it wouldn't be surprising if someone like that was picked on to the point where he became a bully in retaliation.
My beef is that none of these explanations are provided. Only by talking with you personally, here on the forums, do I know that you pretty much just pulled the name out of a hat and assigned it to a random throwaway character. A random reader, assuming they have the same sort of mindset as myself, is going to wonder why you chose that name, and whether you were taking a mean-spirited shot at the original by attaching his name to a bully.
I understand your motivations behind adding homage names like this. I just want to make you aware that doing it seemingly at random like this might not have the effect you intended. Nanoha Inverse worked, in part because the split name made it abundantly clear that this Nanoha was different, and in part because you greatly developed her backstory. Megraton worked, because he retained the aggressiveness and paranoia of the original character.
As for Yuki... I understand that she has great power, and that it might have been her turn to win. My concern is that by rendering her still able to use an ability like Time Stop (you say that's an actually canon ability from TMoSH? I'm only passingly familiar with Haruhi canon beyond the first anime season and the first novel) it brings several uncomfortable things into question.
First off, why didn't she use it before? If she'd used Time Stop, she would have been able to cleanly take out Haruhi when she was sent to assassinate her. This, obviously, wouldn't fit too well with Galus's plans, but there was no indication in your story that Galus wanted her to hold back. This ability would also have been extremely useful the first time Haruhi attacked our heroes in Chapter 7 (though there, at least, Yuki's orders were apparently only to "intercept" not to kill).
There's plenty of possible explanations, to be sure. In the case of Haruhi, maybe Galus explicitly ordered her not to use Time Stop. Or, perhaps even more likely, Yuki consciously chose not to show off her more powerful abilities, knowing that Galus (whom she doesn't much like) would force her to use them explicitly if he knew she was capable of such power. Of course, if he didn't know before, then he knows now.
The main thrust I'm getting at is that you've put yourself in the awkward position now of convincing your readers that Yuki can't just stop time and kill anyone in the world whenever she (or, rather, Galus) wants to. And why she never used it before. These are questions your readers WILL have in mind while reading your fanfic, and if they're never properly addressed it could leave many with an unsatisfied feeling. You told ME that using Time Stop might drain Yuki to the point where she's unable to further fight. You did not tell the readers. Even if you did, though, consider that apparently she still has enough in her to Data Drain - so why not use that energy to walk up to a target and snap his or her neck like a twig? Anyway, enough on that - I'm sure you understand my words of caution by now. Don't give a power to a character unless you're prepared not only to tell the audience why she uses it, but also why she DOESN'T use it. (As my bank robber example indicated, many comic book authors are TERRIBLE at this.)
Lastly, I wanted to apologize for not addressing the Haruhi/Fatora scene. I guess I didn't want to let you down even further, since I knew you probably wrote that scene with me in mind. Since you asked directly, though, I was pretty ho-hum about it. I felt that Haruhi was entirely too flustered by Fatora's proposal. Haruhi's a girl who's used to the unconventional - YEARNS for the unconventional, in fact. I'd think that she'd find Fatora's offer to be interesting (even if she didn't want to partake) rather than embarrassing. Even more importantly, Haruhi's an extraordinarily dominant personality, much like Fatora herself is. It was a bit disheartening to see her so meek in her refusal.
Her reactions to Fatora can make sense, of course. It more or less fits with Haruhi's desperate desire to make peace - since Fatora's one of the folks she has to convince, it makes sense that she'd be a bit careful in letting Fatora down easy. She's chosen diplomacy and debate as tools for convincing the alliance because the situation is so serious (old, non-serious Haruhi would have chosen tools like intimidation and blackmail to get her way ;D ).
Even so, the scene did not come off as funny as I'd hoped. I think, perhaps, it was not the right place or time to put this scene. Both Haruhi and Fatora had their usual personalities severely curbed by the situation. Had she not been trying to negotiate peace, Haruhi would have been less meek. Had she not been dealing with a powerful noble with her sister sitting right beside her, Fatora wouldn't have taken "no" so easily for an answer. With both characters held back in this way, the comedy was severely hamstrung, in my opinion.
Anyway, I hope all this serves as constructive conversation, rather than just bringing you further down. The video, by the way, was cute. "Bunny demon" indeed...
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No problem on me being disheartened a bit by the Chapter 17 review. Your latest reply here helped pick me up a bit.
That said, I wanted to respond to a couple of your counter arguments.
First off, the club you pictured is actually known as a "Nightstick", not a "Knife stick". An easy mistake to make if you've never actually read the term, but only heard it on television. Here's a Wiki article on the weapon. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstick) There are many different varieties, but if you scroll about halfway down the Wiki page, you'll see a picture of the tonfa-style nightsticks you probably had in mind. Now that I know what weapon you had in mind, the scene seems a lot less silly. Yes, a nightstick would be an effective counter against Kyon.
Well, that clears that up for both of us then. :)
Thanks for the info. I'll edit in the proper term later.
As for the Ranma thing, perhaps I didn't explain my discomfort carefully enough. It might just be me, but in a story that already embraces the crossover concept, if we see a famous name pop up attached to a character that resembles the original holder of the name, then I smile and acknowledge the character. If the character does NOT resemble the original, then I want to know why - and with no explanation provided, I'm left confused and a bit irritated.
I acknowledge that there are many possible explanations as to why this Ranma Saotome is a bully. The original's actions certainly could SEEM like those of a bully at times - Ranma's "bullying" is pretty much Ryoga's whole motivation for following him, even if Ranma himself had no idea he was being a bully. (He was similarly "mean" to Ukyou, though she somehow made friends with him anyway.) Another explanation could be that this Ranma Saotome is just some poor guy whose sadistic parents named him after a manga character - it wouldn't be surprising if someone like that was picked on to the point where he became a bully in retaliation.
My beef is that none of these explanations are provided. Only by talking with you personally, here on the forums, do I know that you pretty much just pulled the name out of a hat and assigned it to a random throwaway character. A random reader, assuming they have the same sort of mindset as myself, is going to wonder why you chose that name, and whether you were taking a mean-spirited shot at the original by attaching his name to a bully.
I understand your motivations behind adding homage names like this. I just want to make you aware that doing it seemingly at random like this might not have the effect you intended. Nanoha Inverse worked, in part because the split name made it abundantly clear that this Nanoha was different, and in part because you greatly developed her backstory. Megraton worked, because he retained the aggressiveness and paranoia of the original character.
Ok, I see your points. I concede this point to you entirely. I'll go back and rename Ranma Saotome to Ranma Taro.
As for Yuki... I understand that she has great power, and that it might have been her turn to win. My concern is that by rendering her still able to use an ability like Time Stop (you say that's an actually canon ability from TMoSH? I'm only passingly familiar with Haruhi canon beyond the first anime season and the first novel) ...
Yuki uses time manipulation in the first episode of the 2nd season of TMoSH. That episode only came out recently though - and I only got around to watching it after I had started this fic, and wrote Kyon/Koizumi/Fujisawa vs. Yuki/Nanoha. This put me in the uncomfortable position of having to incorporate in new powers for Yuki that I had not been aware of before (as I'm not a reader of the Haruhi novels). ^^;
I really couldn't justify her not using time stop given how useful it would be in an abduction attempt.
Or, perhaps even more likely, Yuki consciously chose not to show off her more powerful abilities, knowing that Galus (whom she doesn't much like) would force her to use them explicitly if he knew she was capable of such power. Of course, if he didn't know before, then he knows now.
I'm leaning towards this in-fanfic explanation. Thank you for suggesting it. I'll add that Yuki used time-stop in this one abducting incident to try to keep civilian casualties to a minimum - letting Galus see this power in full display at this juncture since it's going to be make-or-break time for Galus very soon anyway. If this logic works all-around for you, I'll probably have it stated explicitly in the next chapter or the one following it.
The main thrust I'm getting at is that you've put yourself in the awkward position now of convincing your readers that Yuki can't just stop time and kill anyone in the world whenever she (or, rather, Galus) wants to. And why she never used it before. These are questions your readers WILL have in mind while reading your fanfic, and if they're never properly addressed it could leave many with an unsatisfied feeling. You told ME that using Time Stop might drain Yuki to the point where she's unable to further fight. You did not tell the readers. Even if you did, though, consider that apparently she still has enough in her to Data Drain - so why not use that energy to walk up to a target and snap his or her neck like a twig? Anyway, enough on that - I'm sure you understand my words of caution by now. Don't give a power to a character unless you're prepared not only to tell the audience why she uses it, but also why she DOESN'T use it. (As my bank robber example indicated, many comic book authors are TERRIBLE at this.)
I see your point. Unforseen developments in the canon TMoSH really threw a monkey wrench into my plot plans.
Lastly, I wanted to apologize for not addressing the Haruhi/Fatora scene.
No problem.
I guess I didn't want to let you down even further, since I knew you probably wrote that scene with me in mind. Since you asked directly, though, I was pretty ho-hum about it. I felt that Haruhi was entirely too flustered by Fatora's proposal. Haruhi's a girl who's used to the unconventional - YEARNS for the unconventional, in fact. I'd think that she'd find Fatora's offer to be interesting (even if she didn't want to partake) rather than embarrassing. Even more importantly, Haruhi's an extraordinarily dominant personality, much like Fatora herself is. It was a bit disheartening to see her so meek in her refusal.
Hhmmm... I respectively find this to be a bit odd. You and Rowan both earlier argued that Haruhi wouldn't have it in her to express romantic feelings for Jinnai, even if she had been keeping them in for a couple of days. Now you're arguing that Haruhi wouldn't be the least bit embarassed being outright propositioned for sex?
It's ironic - my inner thinking when you and Rowan objected to the first romantic Haruhi/Jinnai scene was "Haruhi isn't a meek wallflower. If she's interested in someone, she's going to make it known". Incidentally, this is one of my main issues with the canon Haruhi/Kyon pairing - if Haruhi wanted Kyon as a boyfriend, I think she would have responded to the "dream kiss" between the two of them much more responsively than she did.
Truthfully, I wanted to write Haruhi being a bit of a playful aggressor towards Fatora (since that had been your specific request)... but I just couldn't do it; I just couldn't picture even Haruhi being like that so soon after suffering romantic hurts at Jinnai's words. So, I felt the next best thing was to have Fatora be aggressive towards Haruhi (which I had no problem whatsoever picturing).
I guess the scene fell flat for you. Oh well - at least you liked Megraton of Cyberica. ;) I'm glad you found that to be a cute cameo.
All in all, I guess we just disagree a little bit on Haruhi's canon character.
Her reactions to Fatora can make sense, of course. It more or less fits with Haruhi's desperate desire to make peace - since Fatora's one of the folks she has to convince, it makes sense that she'd be a bit careful in letting Fatora down easy. She's chosen diplomacy and debate as tools for convincing the alliance because the situation is so serious (old, non-serious Haruhi would have chosen tools like intimidation and blackmail to get her way ;D ).
That was a lot of my thinking, too.
Anyway, I hope all this serves as constructive conversation, rather than just bringing you further down. The video, by the way, was cute. "Bunny demon" indeed...
I'm glad you liked it!
In all seriousness, Jinnai's choice of words there (when activating Ifurita) were telling to me. Perhaps it reflects his ideal woman - "deadly little bunny demon". Kind of fits Haruhi to a tee. ;)
I think his taste in women leans much more towards short/cute/adorable than tall/sexy/voluptuous - this also might serve to explain his frenzied rejections of the tall and voluptuous Diva's advances in Alternate World. It also might help to explain why he seemed to get along a bit better with shorter/cuter Kalia than taller/more voluptuous Ifurita.
Anyway, I really appreciate your reply here. It's actually served to pick me up a bit. :)
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Special Notes: I've created a heck of a lot of El Hazard nations out of thin air, since the only ones I know of are Roshtaria, Gannan, and Durasland (and three nations just doesn't seem like enough to me). If, however, there are actual canon El Hazard nations that I'm forgetting, I'll gladly put them in place in some of the fanfic nation names I'll come up with. So, I'm all ears there!
Well, I arranged the place names mentioned in the OVAs, TV series, and videogame on the El-Hazard map shown in OVA1 a number of years ago, and although I've since forgotten in what context many of the following appellations were used I think they're either human countries or cities. Considering most of these were probably one-time references, though, their inclusion isn't terribly important because they're not really well-known. And you could always argue that most of them are actually cities or dependencies consolidated under the leadership of the rulers shown in this new chapter, anyway.
Roshtaria
Balta Hill (destroyed by Ifurita, I think)
Geynos
Gannon
Laide
Doros Land
Kobisho
Baron
Duchy of Paralia
Beansland
Ogresio
El Dolash
Anyway, apologies for taking so long to review this chapter. I've been busy this past week and by the looks of it I could be pretty busy this next week too (with July 4 coming up and all) so I'm not sure if I'll be able to keep up with your commendably fast updating pace. I'll definitely try, though, and I'm looking forward to seeing how this story turns out now that the final act has dawned.
At any rate, since Spanner already lucidly touched upon cameos and villainous powers I'll try to stick to different matters to avoid repetition, with the exception that I think you took the right approach with your Megatron "cameo." As Spanner said, it was clearly a different character but with enough overt similarities that the allusion made sense and I could smile and chuckle at it.
I also applaud your reuse of previously mentioned elements in this chapter. I didn't expect to see the Bugrom Manual or actual Zala adherents appear, but their inclusions here is a pleasant act of using what you've already created to move the story forward and helps strengthen the cohesiveness of the tale as a whole. And as you had Galus point out, it's appreciably ironic that the Black Knights of Zala would inadvertently serve the Phantom Tribe's ends. It is a little surprising to me that they would be able to gain entrance to such a high-profile meeting, but then again considering how easily Jinnai and TV Ifurita infiltrated Baron and that Alliance summit it doesn't sound too farfetched in comparison. If you go back and edit, however, disclosing that one of Londs' guards was a Zala agent could further help explain how Florestica's defenders were so easily overtaken.
Mikuru the Cabaret Dancer was an amusing mental image, and I'm relieved that Fatora was relatively...mild in her treatment of the time-traveler. I guess wanting to impress Haruhi saved Mikuru from Fatora and Alliele's more aggressive tendencies. ;) The rest of that scene was entertaining though, as both you and Spanner mentioned, somewhat restrained in feeling. I liked Haruhi's talk with Nanami and your efforts to explain how Jinnai's psyche began to become so warped too, but I think your best scene was probably the peace conference. There were a lot of interesting interactions between personalities there, and it was an intelligent way to stress out Haruhi again and set her up for the Phantom Tribe's plans. And yes, Yuki's entrance was quite impressive.
The Groucho and Jinnai scene came across as flat to me, though. I like those two characters and I can understand that you're trying to show how torn Jinnai is, but you could probably accomplish the same with one of Kyon's first-person narratives when you do cover their actual heart-to-heart in the next chapter. I'm also a little uneasy with the thought of Haruhi gaining the powers of another person when she assumes their facsimile. It makes sense that she'd be able to understand Bugrom when in Bugrom Queen form since that seems to be a biological ability innate to that Bugrom-type, but when Demon Gods start to enter the picture...well, they're androids, for starters. Being able to turn organic cells into other organic cells is one thing, but going from organics to technology and back? That places very few limits on her potential powers, and I think a more limited shapeshifting would work better a la Mystique or Morph from Marvel Comics. That's just my opinion, however, and arguing for restraint when a character unknowingly has the powers of a god does sound odd.
Anyway, please keep up the entertaining work. It should be interesting to see how Galus's scheme unfolds from here now that his plans are coming to fruition.
P.S. Other than the question of whether French names are appropriate for El-Hazard humans, Pierre Chamberlain sounds fine to me.
P.P.S. How is the second season of Haruhi, by the way? I heard that the new episodes are being rebroadcast mixed up with the first season episodes, but I haven't started watching them yet.
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On the topic of Yuki, I think I'm beginning to understand your difficulty and frustration. It might assist you in your writing if you understood how I viewed her character initially in the context of your work.
Having read a great deal of Haruhi fanfiction, many of which cover topics WELL outside of the scope of my personal knowledge of the franchise, I knew from the start that Yuki was ridiculously powerful. There are some that say that her power even outstrips Haruhi's, or at least parallels it (though I suspect those folks to be Yuki fanboys). For example, (and this may be a spoiler, if you choose to pass it over), at one point Yuki completely rewrites the world to exclude Haruhi and to transform herself, Mikuru, and Itsuki into ordinary humans. She is eventually forced by the Integrated Data Entity to undo the changes, and would have even been severely disciplined by them if not for Kyon's intervention.
Even if you go by the first book / first anime season, it's pretty apparent that human interfaces like Yuki have a ridiculous amount of power. Ryoko had Kyon pretty much entirely at her mercy when she tried to kill him. The fact that she tried to kill him with a knife and allowed him to run free for a while seemed more to do with her own personal curiousity as to how humans react to death, rather than any limitation on her part.
The reason Yuki works as a character in the original works is that she's primarily an observer, and rarely executes her power. When she does execute her power, the author is careful to have her do it in such a way that it serves a specific purpose; pretty much the only time it's used as a deux ex machina, for instance, is when she saves Kyon from Ryoko. In that case, it was a neccessary intervention to prove to Kyon (and the readers) that she really IS an alien life form.
In this story, you've transformed Yuki into an antagonist which, while I found it to be an exciting and interesting idea, is potentially disastrous. The amnesia you gave her was an excellent idea, as was transforming her body into that of a Demon God. Either or both were great potential ways to limit her usual godly power into something the protagonists could handle. Heck, the fact that I'm considering being changed into a Demon God as a DOWNGRADE should give you a hint as to how troublesome Yuki's power could be unfettered. ;D
Instead, though, it seems that you actually intended not to limit Yuki's power at all. The purpose of the amnesia was to allow her to attack her friends without mercy, and the purpose of the Demon God form was to put a leash on her that Galus could hold. This, I think, may be at the heart of the troubles you're facing now. You want Yuki to have all the power of a fully-fledged Data Entity, and also have her be an unrestrained antagonist. This may be a pretty tall order to try to tackle - I'm pretty sure that I, myself, couldn't come up with a satisfactory solution.
Don't let me get you down, though - I don't think you've TOTALLY painted yourself into a corner, but it might take some careful waffling to provide a convincing reason. You might want to back down a bit from giving Yuki all of the powers and abilities demonstrated in the novels, at least until she reestablishes contact with the Integrated Data Entity. Again, her amnesia and new body are good excuses to use to prevent her from being totally unstoppable.
On the topic of Haruhi's being able to change into a fully-functional copy of Ifurita, I don't necessarily think that's unreasonable. After all, Haruhi does have virtually unlimited abilities to change reality (her shackle is the fact that she doesn't KNOW she has such powers), so her shapeshifting abilities could work pretty much any way she wants them to. Essentially, her abilities are limited only to what she THINKS they're limited to. This might seem overly versatile, but bear in mind that Haruhi, for all her optimistic yearning for the unusual, is a hardened skeptic and realist. She's likely to make all kinds of logical assumptions about her abilities that don't neccessarily hold true (for instance, she might be able to transform herself into the Eye of God, but given how absurd that would be, she's not likely to try it, or even think she'd be able).
Heck, before Jinnai encouraged her to stretch her wings (pun very much intended :D), Haruhi didn't show any indication that she thought herself able to change into anything other than a Bugrom Queen! I think there may be some significant danger that in the future, her association with Jinnai may prompt him to urge Haruhi to play with her abilities more and more, to push her limits and figure out what she can REALLY do. That may well be beyond the scope of this fanfiction, however. Perhaps, though, Haruhi's gradual introduction to her godlike powers will be the great breakthrough that Yuki and Itsuki mentioned way back in Chapter Two!
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Chapter 18 is up!:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9185989&posted=1#post9185989
Now, Spanner, I think that I've found a way out of the corner that you believe me to be painted in. ;) Although, I'll admit that I've created a new corner for myself for dramatic purposes. ^_^V
A few points...
1. You're very close to the full scope of this fanfic. And it was actually Itsuki and Kyon who had the conversation you were refering to, way back in Chapter 1, but kudos all the same for just remembering it at all! That certainly shows how you're a dedicated reviewer and careful reader. :)
Let me just say that Katsuhiko Jinnai may very well be the key that Itsuki Koizumi has always been looking for in ensuring that Haruhi Suzumiya never tries to reboot the world while also ensuring that Haruhi gradually adapts into her reality altering powers. Also, perhaps Haruhi can be kept sufficiently entertained at all times by the charismatic Jinnai. ;)
2. I tend to like to end my fanfics off with a bang in the final chapter. I tend to like stories in general this way - so much so that I dislike the trend of some animes to have an entire aftermath episode after the big climax fight. I personally feel that the last episode of a major story arc should be the one in which the big climax occurs. Same with the last chapter of a fanfic. That being said...
3. Given no. 2, there's a good chance I'll write a sequel to this story at some point, delving into some of the issues that you and/or Rowan have frequently raised, but which I simply can't squeeze in to a short quarter-of-a-chapter aftermath after the big climax. I'll want to take a break from fanfic writing once I'm finished this 20-Chapter project, but in the future... who knows, maybe there will be more story to tell. ;) Would you be interested, Spanner?
4. As per 3, there's 2 Chapters left. That's DEFINITE now.
5. Thanks for all the great info and thoughts on Yuki! I was NOT aware of a lot of that. :o My thinking was that the amnesia would limit Yuki's skill at fighting, but would make her more ruthless in battle - hence, making her a much more fun antagonist in general. Putting her on Galus' leash was needed to ensure that she'd be an antagonist, and also to make Galus seem more powerful and ominous.
Finally, I intended for Yuki to maintain all of her original abilities, and simply add El Hazard demon god ones to them. Mind you, I did this with out knowing just how powerful Yuki was... yikes! Still, she was intended to be a VERY powerful antagonist... but one limited by her lack of memory.
Edit reply for Rowan:
Thanks for listing all of those El Hazard city/country names for me! I really appreciate it, and there's a couple there I may edit in to Chapter 17 later (some of those names I have to admit I don't like - mind you, Engrome sounds pretty bad too ^^; )
No problem on the late review. I'm Canadian, and so July 4th isn't a big holiday for me personally, but... if I can have this fanfic finished by July 3rd, would that be soon enough for you to read and review it all, or would you rather me hold off the final chapter until, say, July 6th?
I'm really glad you took note of the return of the Bugrom resource manual and Zala adherents! Touches like that were a big part of why I thought it was my best chapter. I also admit that I myself really liked the cabaret Mikuru idea I had - it's quite a nice visual image, I think.
As for the Jinnai scene falling flat with both you and Spanner - I think a lot of it may be how it's a painful bit to read if you like Jinnai AND you don't know what's happening next. As a Jinnai fan myself, I'd find it hard to read if I didn't know (as the author) what would be coming later. However, I think that this Chapter 17 scene might add a bit of added OOMPH to the Chapter 18 Jinnai scenes.
Let's just say I'm a sucker for Rocky Balboa-like comeback stories... ;)
As for Season 2 Haruhi Suzumiya - I've only seen the first episode yet. The outro is very different - lots of flashing lights and techo. Hare Hare Yukai is completely gone. The episode is decent slice of life. It has some nice Kyon/Mikuru and Kyon/Yuki scenes. It also includes Kyon in his John Smith role, working for a younger Haruhi (Kyon goes back in time in this episode). My main complaint is the artwork - it still looks nice, but all of the characters look de-aged to me. Haruhi could almost pass for a pre-teen, actually.
BTW - Haruhi and Jinnai are the same age. They're both 17, according to Absolute Anime, If I remember correctly.
Three special questions for both Spanner and Rowan...
1) Did you like the Alielle/Fatora dialogue in Chapter 17? Basically, do you think I'm still writing them well?
2) Having had about 16 chapters of bugrom dialogue, how do you feel about it now? Do you like the personality that I've given Groucho, for example? Truthfully, my Groucho is highly inspired by 80s/early 90s western cartoons. I even tried to give him just a touch of Optimus Prime.
3) Pertaining to the climax, I'm weighing three options...
1) Cheesy and over-the-top, but hopefully really fun
2) Very intense, a bit dark, but you'll probably have to suspend disbelief a bit.
3) Most of the fun of 1 with less cheese, the intensity of 2 with less darkness, but more plot devicey than 1 or 2 ( not requiring suspension of disbelief, just plot devicey).
Any preference between the 3?
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Edit reply for Rowan:
No problem on the late review. I'm Canadian, and so July 4th isn't a big holiday for me personally, but... if I can have this fanfic finished by July 3rd, would that be soon enough for you to read and review it all, or would you rather me hold off the final chapter until, say, July 6th?
Take however long you want. Being something of a slow writer and procrastinator myself I'd recommend the later date to give yourself more time, but so far you've maintained a highly impressive pace and an earlier deadline could be good for you. It's your call.
Three special questions for both Spanner and Rowan...
1) Did you like the Alielle/Fatora dialogue in Chapter 17? Basically, do you think I'm still writing them well?
Yes, definitely. You've done a great job articulating their lascivious, comedic roles.
2) Having had about 16 chapters of bugrom dialogue, how do you feel about it now? Do you like the personality that I've given Groucho, for example? Truthfully, my Groucho is highly inspired by 80s/early 90s western cartoons. I even tried to give him just a touch of Optimus Prime.
It didn't bother me as much as I thought it would, and so far you've done a fair job with it. With a few exceptions their dialogue has been relatively bland, but considering they're an insect race with a queen that makes sense because I wouldn't expect many Bugrom to have strikingly stand-out personalities other than those who've been around Jinnai for the longest. And your Groucho's fine. It's different from my interpretation but well within his "Jinnai's friend who's also a genuinely nice guy" depiction.
3) Pertaining to the climax, I'm weighing three options...
1) Cheesy and over-the-top, but hopefully really fun
2) Very intense, a bit dark, but you'll probably have to suspend disbelief a bit.
3) Most of the fun of 1 with less cheese, the intensity of 2 with less darkness, but more plot devicey than 1 or 2 ( not requiring suspension of disbelief, just plot devicey).
Any preference between the 3?
Based solely on the options, I'd probably go for 1 or 3. However, while suspending disbelief can be something of a distraction, depending on what exactly you have planned an intense, slightly dark climax could also be the best choice. And as has been said, Haruhi's something of a built-in deus ex machina anyway. This is your story so write the ending you think is best.
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And so, Chapter 18 and another step closer to the finale. There was some good, some bad, and a fair amount of entertainment in this update, and I'll start this review with the former. First, good job with Galus' dialogue and your choice of accented words. It's been long enough since I last watched the OVA series that I don't remember if this is how he talks and earlier in the story all the idioms came across as slightly strange to me, but they've grown on me and his speech patterns really conveyed a sense of menace here.
I also really liked Jinnai's scene where he rallied the Bugrom and departed in his rescue attempt. Groucho's ploy to get through to his master worked a bit quicker than I would have initially expected, but Jinnai isn't the type of person to hesitate when a decision needs to be made and you conveyed his sheer disgust at having to make such a promise quite well. His distaste at the tentative peace agreement with the Alliance also felt like a nice in-character touch, and his speech was simultaneously amusing and rousing. You have me genuinely interested in seeing how his devious mind copes with whatever defenses Galus has available.
Koizumi's anticipation of Galus's tactics was interesting and added a more cerebral element to this encounter, though I am slightly puzzled how Koizumi knew the Phantom Tribe had installed neural inhibiters in Yuki's head. If you mentioned it earlier I apologize, but it seems like a bit of a gamble on Itsuki's part to create a strategy based around an assumption. You might want to emphasize a less specific goal here, such as Makoto going for the head instead of the key staff in an effort to either free her in a more roundabout, less predictable way or force communication between Yuki and the Integrated Data Entity and discovering the neural inhibitors during the ensuing link. Does Makoto's targeting of the neural inhibitors also mean that he's been told about Yuki's alien status now, by the way?
Kyon had some entertaining bits of narrative, and I particularly liked his "Damn" at the end of his account of the triple agent. With so much going on in the previous chapter his sarcasm came across as a bit understated to me, and I'm glad to see it returning.
As for the bad, the Phantom Scope seems like something of a gimmick to me. I picture Dr. Schtalubaugh as more of the scholar-scientist type rather than a geneticist, and I don't remember him every displaying such proficiency with creating what appears to be a complex technological device. And Nanami's power is to see through Phantom Tribe illusions, not detect members of the Phantom Tribe, so the Scope's contrasting radar ability seems even odder to me. Even assuming Dr. Schtalubaugh can create such a device using a sample of Nanami's DNA, though, if the party of would-be rescuers split into two groups why would one group (Afura's) take both the Scope AND Nanami? That leaves Makoto, Kyon, and Koizumi defenseless against any Phantom Tribers they come across, and a really good illusionist such as Nahato could probably have taken them out even before they reached Yuki. Otherwise the members of the two parties made sense, but I'd really try to do something about this apparent oversight in logic.
Galus's method of dealing with Afura's party also REALLY felt like something out of a Saturday morning cartoon. That's not necessarily a bad thing since it was effective (though I'm left wondering why Afura didn't take to the air and fly the moment she felt the floor slide out from under her), but between the trap door and subsequent "put them in chains and bring them to my throne room" that's the image I formed and recalling the likes of Shredder and Dr. Claw breaks the tension somewhat. I think one way of handling this might be to emphasize its cartoony character through Kyon's biting sarcasm and hammering in the point that despite how silly it appears it worked and everyone's in greater danger now.
You also have me wondering a bit about what exactly Galus's plan is. When it was revealed that he basically intended to have the protagonists walk into a death trap in the last chapter, I assumed his goal was to kill all of them while Haruhi watched and drive her to such anger and despair that she destroys the world. Now he seems to have changed his mind and is more interested in capturing Haruhi's power rather than obliterating El-Hazard...or is he pursuing both and keeping the rescuers alive so he can murder them later if the Phantom Tribe's science proves incapable of copying/transferring their prisoner's powers? I'm confused on this point.
Otherwise, the chapter's all right. Not one of my favorites, but it moved the story along and featured some compelling developments. With so many people in one place, though, a lot of the secondary characters felt understated to me. I think one of your bigger challenges is going to be doing justice to such a huge and dynamic cast now that most of them are all assembled (or are assembling) together in one place. Anyway, good luck with your writing and thanks for sharing.
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And so, Chapter 18 and another step closer to the finale. There was some good, some bad, and a fair amount of entertainment in this update, and I'll start this review with the former. First, good job with Galus' dialogue and your choice of accented words. It's been long enough since I last watched the OVA series that I don't remember if this is how he talks and earlier in the story all the idioms came across as slightly strange to me, but they've grown on me and his speech patterns really conveyed a sense of menace here.
I personally recall Galus as being a gentlemanly villain in how he tried to sound polite at most times... but he would laugh at his enemy's pain (as he did in one scene involving Fatora screaming out in pain while she was held in the Shadow Tribe's hold) - hence why he laughs at Haruhi's pain here. I vaguely recall his dialogue having a certain... smoothness and refined nature to it. Hence his use of complex metaphors.
I myself haven't watched the El Hazard OVA in quite some time, aside from a few scenes that I re-watched purely for the purposes of helping myself write this fanfic. I'm writing Galus mostly by memory.
I also really liked Jinnai's scene where he rallied the Bugrom and departed in his rescue attempt.
That was my favorite scene in the chapter as well. I'm glad you liked it.
Groucho's ploy to get through to his master worked a bit quicker than I would have initially expected,
Well, that's part of the reason why I had the Groucho/Jinnai scene in Chapter 17. Showing Jinnai's anguished indecisiveness over Haruhi vs. Makoto there makes his quick response to Groucho's ploy more believable in my view - we've seen Jinnai struggle with it long enough; it really is time for him to make a choice.
Also, I personally felt that Groucho's ploy was quite clever. Even if Jinnai is still undecided on Haruhi/Makoto, it makes sense for him to place more value on saving his girlfriend's life than going out of his way to ensure that his archenemy lives just so that Jinnai is the one to kill Makoto instead.
... but Jinnai isn't the type of person to hesitate when a decision needs to be made and you conveyed his sheer disgust at having to make such a promise quite well. His distaste at the tentative peace agreement with the Alliance also felt like a nice in-character touch, and his speech was simultaneously amusing and rousing. You have me genuinely interested in seeing how his devious mind copes with whatever defenses Galus has available.
Thanks! I'm very glad you found the speech both amusing and rousing - a balance of the two is what I was aiming for.
Koizumi's anticipation of Galus's tactics was interesting and added a more cerebral element to this encounter, though I am slightly puzzled how Koizumi knew the Phantom Tribe had installed neural inhibiters in Yuki's head.
He might not. One thing I should point out - Kyon's narration is present tense, but it's told by him looking back on these events. So, if the narration mentions something, that doesn't necessarily mean that anybody other than Kyon knows. Also, Kyon himself may only know it in his narrator role; looking back on these events.
Does Makoto's targeting of the neural inhibitors also mean that he's been told about Yuki's alien status now, by the way?
Good question. I haven't thought of that. However, I don't think it makes too much of a difference in the sense that there's probably not much harm in Makoto knowing - I mean, Makoto shouldn't be "freaked out about it" or anything like that; he is living primarily amongst aliens now anyway.
Kyon had some entertaining bits of narrative, and I particularly liked his "Damn" at the end of his account of the triple agent. With so much going on in the previous chapter his sarcasm came across as a bit understated to me, and I'm glad to see it returning.
Thank you. As you said, there was simply not much room to squeeze in Kyon sarcasm in Chapters 13 through 17; keeping in mind, of course, that these chapters included him frequently playing a heroic role, which doesn't always gel well with a sarcastic tone. Even in the canon Haruhi anime, Kyon had to take upon himself an atypically upbeat tone in trying to talk Haruhi into not remaking the world while him and her shared that dream together.
However, after several chapters of little Kyon snark; it was time for it to return. I'm glad you liked it.
As for the bad, the Phantom Scope seems like something of a gimmick to me. I picture Dr. Schtalubaugh as more of the scholar-scientist type rather than a geneticist, and I don't remember him every displaying such proficiency with creating what appears to be a complex technological device. And Nanami's power is to see through Phantom Tribe illusions, not detect members of the Phantom Tribe,
Yes, but it's those illusions that prevent people from recognizing Phantom Tribe members when they're around. It doesn't seem odd to me that a person mysteriously gifted with the power to see through those illusions may have something within her that could be utilized to track Phantom Tribe members... since with the illusions removed, anybody could recognize them.
so the Scope's contrasting radar ability seems even odder to me. Even assuming Dr. Schtalubaugh can create such a device using a sample of Nanami's DNA, though, if the party of would-be rescuers split into two groups why would one group (Afura's) take both the Scope AND Nanami?
Two points.
First of all, the Scope had already determined that there was no Shadow Tribe signals coming from the right path - the path leading to Yuki. Shadow Tribe signals were only coming from the left path. These aren't terribly long paths - hence why there's little break in action from when the two groups break apart, and the trap being sprung on Afura and her team. With the paths not being that long, there's no reason to believe that a Shadow Tribe member (including Nahato) could sneak onto the right path out of nowhere (given the very recent Phantom Scope readings) before Koizumi's team reaches Yuki's room.
Secondly, Koizumi can only provide Time Freeze protection to those in bodily contact with him - hence, the more he takes with him, the more cumbersome it becomes to maintain such bodily contact amongst everyone, and hence the more dangerous it becomes for the team as a whole.
Makoto is clearly needed for Koizumi's plans to succeed for obvious reasons. Kyon's magnetic powers may come in very handy against Yuki.
Nanami would have perhaps been the fourth best person to have along here, but it could be argued that four people constantly touching each other while walking is a bit of a crowd and that it impedes movement.
That leaves Makoto, Kyon, and Koizumi defenseless against any Phantom Tribers they come across, and a really good illusionist such as Nahato could probably have taken them out even before they reached Yuki. Otherwise the members of the two parties made sense, but I'd really try to do something about this apparent oversight in logic.
I don't think that there's an oversight in logic here. I think that the team formations I've made here make sense. If you still don't think that they make sense, then please tell me, and I'll consider re-editing Chapter 18.
Galus's method of dealing with Afura's party also REALLY felt like something out of a Saturday morning cartoon.
Death traps are common in far more than Saturday morning cartoons.
I've long felt that one of the glaring weaknesses of the canon El Hazard antagonists - including OVA Jinnai himself, quite frankly - is their failure to take more care in trying to counter the powers of their enemies as well as taking advantage of the weaknesses of their enemies (Wanderers Jinnai gets a pass here because he actually did take advantage of Fujisawa's alcohol weakness).
I thought it would be nice, for a change, to see an El Hazard antagonist actually take advantage of some pretty exploitable weaknesses - hence a gas chamber of death tailor made for Sensei Fujisawa.
In my mind, the set up for this gas chamber was far more complex - simply in the type of gas used - than what you'd see on most Saturday morning cartoons.
That's not necessarily a bad thing since it was effective (though I'm left wondering why Afura didn't take to the air and fly the moment she felt the floor slide out from under her)
It was only a ten feet drop. That's actually a pretty quick drop. Afura has never struck me as having super quick reaction times. Also, part of the reason why I gave her the Phantom Scope was so that her focus would be a little bit more divided than normal - hence helping to explain why she didn't react so suddenly to the floor sliding out from under her.
but between the trap door and subsequent "put them in chains and bring them to my throne room" that's the image I formed and recalling the likes of Shredder and Dr. Claw breaks the tension somewhat. I think one way of handling this might be to emphasize its cartoony character through Kyon's biting sarcasm and hammering in the point that despite how silly it appears it worked and everyone's in greater danger now.
How is it silly? Like you said yourself, it's effective. Galus isn't familiar with 80s cartoons - for him, it's all a matter of effectiveness.
It's a good trap for him to set. Keep in mind that it's a back-up trap. If the trap was Plan A, I could perhaps see it being a bit cheesy, but as a back-up trap, it speaks well of Galus' ability to have good contingency plans and to not rely overly on Plan A. Plan A was simply for Yuki to take everybody out during a time freeze/sneak attack from behind; Plan A became neutralized, though, due to how Koizumi is impervious to time freeze, and also since he saw through the plan hence causing three people to head towards Yuki instead of away from her.
Galus' trap also almost works perfectly - at the very least, it did leave over half of the protagonists unconscious and at Galus' mercy.
You also have me wondering a bit about what exactly Galus's plan is. When it was revealed that he basically intended to have the protagonists walk into a death trap in the last chapter, I assumed his goal was to kill all of them while Haruhi watched and drive her to such anger and despair that she destroys the world. Now he seems to have changed his mind and is more interested in capturing Haruhi's power rather than obliterating El-Hazard...or is he pursuing both and keeping the rescuers alive so he can murder them later if the Phantom Tribe's science proves incapable of copying/transferring their prisoner's powers?
Well, if he gets Haruhi's power, he can still destroy El Hazard - in fact, it becomes easier for him to do so. Galus was impressed enough by his enemies bid for survival that he's had a slight change of heart on something. You're going to see that in Chapter 19.
And, honestly, your assumption was simply off. That was never my plan here. I guess that it's good that I'm still surprising you at least, eh? ;)
I'm confused on this point.
Otherwise, the chapter's all right. Not one of my favorites, but it moved the story along and featured some compelling developments. With so many people in one place, though, a lot of the secondary characters felt understated to me.
A fair criticism, but perhaps an unavoidable one. I felt that too much protagonist dialogue - dialogue that would be either superfluous or casual chit-chat - would break the suspenseful tension/mood.
I think one of your bigger challenges is going to be doing justice to such a huge and dynamic cast now that most of them are all assembled (or are assembling) together in one place. Anyway, good luck with your writing and thanks for sharing.
Rowan... out of curiosity, what were your favorite chapters?
Not all of the cast members are going to be prominent in the last two chapters. I don't intend for them to be. Actually, I'm kind of surprised that you haven't guessed the finale yet. A classic finale type (perhaps even cliche I will admit) is just waiting here, and it'll even include a couple neat facets and twists to it (that'll act as a neat subversion of the cliche aspects, I hope).
Anyway, a lot of cast members are there because it would be illogical to leave any of them behind for a rescue mission, and also since they should get some more screen time than what they've been given so far.
Well... given my failings in Chapters 17 and 18 for Spanner (17) and you (18 ), making this finale enjoyable for you both is going to be a challenge. All I can say is that I will try my best to meet that challenge for you both!
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Sorry I've been out of touch; last week was unexpectedly busy. As such, I haven't had a chance to read your new material yet. I thought I'd pop in and answer your questions, however:
who knows, maybe there will be more story to tell. ;) Would you be interested, Spanner?
I might indeed. :)
Finally, I intended for Yuki to maintain all of her original abilities, and simply add El Hazard demon god ones to them. Mind you, I did this with out knowing just how powerful Yuki was... yikes!
Yeah, giving Yuki the abilities of a Demon God is a bit like giving a fish the ability to swim. XD I don't think there's anything Ifurita can do that Yuki couldn't, if Yuki were motivated to do so.
BTW - Haruhi and Jinnai are the same age. They're both 17, according to Absolute Anime, If I remember correctly.
Remember, at the start of the series (or first, novel, if you prefer), both Kyon and Haruhi are beginning their first year of High School, which, in the US, would be tenth grade. When you first see them, they are both fifteen years old, though might have become sixteen at some point during the first year. If Absolute Anime lists them as seventeen, I'd say they're either mistaken, or using Haruhi's age from the later novels (I'm not sure how many years the Haruhi franchise covers). Another possibility is that both of them were held back a year - but that seems extremely unlikely, as Haruhi is supposed to be a brilliant student, and Kyon is, at the very least, average (though given his distinct philosophical bent, I'd say he's probably a lot brighter than he gives himself credit for).
Three special questions for both Spanner and Rowan...
1) Did you like the Alielle/Fatora dialogue in Chapter 17? Basically, do you think I'm still writing them well?
Well, it's like I said earlier; I thought that Fatora seemed a little too restrained, though, again, that could be attributed to their current surroundings. She actually asks Haruhi's permission to drag her into bed, and takes no for an answer!
Alielle seemed spot-on, though; I have no complaints about her dialogue. Fatora's off-handed way of discarding Alielle when it was convenient seemed in-character for Fatora, as well. If you're asking strictly about the dialogue between these two characters, rather than the dialogue of these two character with each other and with everyone else, I'd have to say it's good work.
2) Having had about 16 chapters of bugrom dialogue, how do you feel about it now? Do you like the personality that I've given Groucho, for example? Truthfully, my Groucho is highly inspired by 80s/early 90s western cartoons. I even tried to give him just a touch of Optimus Prime.
I think your interpretation of Groucho is perfectly legitimate, and I enjoy it quite a bit!
3) Pertaining to the climax, I'm weighing three options...
1) Cheesy and over-the-top, but hopefully really fun
2) Very intense, a bit dark, but you'll probably have to suspend disbelief a bit.
3) Most of the fun of 1 with less cheese, the intensity of 2 with less darkness, but more plot devicey than 1 or 2 ( not requiring suspension of disbelief, just plot devicey).
Any preference between the 3?
All three options sound tempting, though it's really hard to make a judgment without knowing exactly what you have in mind. I will admit that the bit about supension of disbelief seems a bit ominous; best to avoid stretching that unless absolutely necessary. I guess I'd have to side with Rowan and say 1 or 3 would be for the best.
Before I sign off, I did want to remark on one additional thing; you expressed confusion at the idea of Haruhi taking an aggressive attitude toward Fatora, when both Rowan and I agree that she's pretty hopeless when it comes to matters of love. There's an easy answer to that: love doesn't have anything to do with it, at least not the romantic sort that Haruhi considers to be a "mental illness".
What Haruhi does to Mikuru, and what Fatora does to the women she dominates, can't really be considered love or romance. There may be sex involved (at least in Fatora's case) or sexual harassment, but it's essentially one party using the other for personal enjoyment, not a loving relationship at all.
While it may be difficult for me to swallow Haruhi falling in love with someone (or, I should say, for her to admit to herself that she's falling in love with someone), I could see her having sex with someone if it suited her to do so. As she said herself, she's a healthy teenaged girl, and she has needs. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with love.
In the case of Fatora, I'm not saying that she should hop into bed with her. However, Fatora is clearly trying to intimidate and dominate her - and as Brigade Chief, it's not the kind of thing I think she would stand for! Haruhi, once "challenged" in this way, should take steps to bend Fatora to her will, whether it be through counter-intimidation, blackmail, or whatever other tools prove to be convenient. Not that she'd necessarily be successful - both of them have very strong wills, and a rather painful lack of common sense. Their clash of wills could be most entertaining.
Note, that's just my interpretation of both their characters. Your interpretation may be different, but it's not necessarily bad or wrong. I'll admit, though, that that's the kind of thing I hoped for when you promised a Fatora/Haruhi comedy scene. It's like I said, you can't please me all the time, and it's a mistake to even try!
Hopefully, I'll have a chance to read chapter 18 tomorrow.
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Sorry I've been out of touch; last week was unexpectedly busy.
That's no problem. Here's hoping you and Rowan have a nice 4th of July!
As such, I haven't had a chance to read your new material yet. I thought I'd pop in and answer your questions, however:
I might indeed. :)
I'm glad to read that. I think that I may do a largely comedy-based sequel borrowing from some of the great ideas for comedy/slice of life scenes that you and Rowan have given me. Under different circumstances than those of Chapter 17, I'm inclined to agree with you that Fatora and Haruhi would have handled the scene between them differently, and that could make for good comedy. There's probably not room to fit it in within this particular fanfic, but with a sequel... who knows.
Remember, at the start of the series (or first, novel, if you prefer), both Kyon and Haruhi are beginning their first year of High School, which, in the US, would be tenth grade. When you first see them, they are both fifteen years old, though might have become sixteen at some point during the first year. If Absolute Anime lists them as seventeen, I'd say they're either mistaken, or using Haruhi's age from the later novels (I'm not sure how many years the Haruhi franchise covers). Another possibility is that both of them were held back a year - but that seems extremely unlikely, as Haruhi is supposed to be a brilliant student, and Kyon is, at the very least, average (though given his distinct philosophical bent, I'd say he's probably a lot brighter than he gives himself credit for).
I agree that Haruhi is a very smart student - I do put her in an intellectual class with Makoto and Jinnai, only with the three having slightly different areas of expertise.
Kyon is probably an above average student, and of above average intelligence.
Anyway, a 17 year old in a romance with a 15 year old isn't terrible, so I don't think that's a problem. Thanks for all the info though.
Well, it's like I said earlier; I thought that Fatora seemed a little too restrained, though, again, that could be attributed to their current surroundings. She actually asks Haruhi's permission to drag her into bed, and takes no for an answer!
Alielle seemed spot-on, though; I have no complaints about her dialogue. Fatora's off-handed way of discarding Alielle when it was convenient seemed in-character for Fatora, as well. If you're asking strictly about the dialogue between these two characters, rather than the dialogue of these two character with each other and with everyone else, I'd have to say it's good work.
Good points.
I think your interpretation of Groucho is perfectly legitimate, and I enjoy it quite a bit!
That's great to read! :)
All three options sound tempting, though it's really hard to make a judgment without knowing exactly what you have in mind. I will admit that the bit about supension of disbelief seems a bit ominous; best to avoid stretching that unless absolutely necessary. I guess I'd have to side with Rowan and say 1 or 3 would be for the best.
Before I sign off, I did want to remark on one additional thing; you expressed confusion at the idea of Haruhi taking an aggressive attitude toward Fatora, when both Rowan and I agree that she's pretty hopeless when it comes to matters of love. There's an easy answer to that: love doesn't have anything to do with it, at least not the romantic sort that Haruhi considers to be a "mental illness".
While I personally don't recall Haruhi referring to love as a "mental illness", or implying/saying something to that effect, I now have no doubt that she did since you've brought it up twice now. However, you seem to be attaching an inordinate amount of importance to it, Spanner.
Haruhi also (in)famously said, in a brash and bold proclamation to her entire class, that she basically only wanted to be friends with espers, time travellers, aliens, or sliders. How long did it take her to go back on that proclamation, taking into account how neither of her SOS Brigade members fits into either of the categories she provided, to the best of her knowledge? ;)
I think that you (and possibly Rowan as well) are assigning far too much weight to implications or proclamations or statements made by Haruhi that may be no more binding than the one I mentioned above.
Actually, the following is a very plausible interpretation of her character I think... Haruhi is looking for romance; hence why she had so many different boyfriends and/or dates with guys. After being displeased with every last person she dated, she eventually decided that romance was a lost cause, and hence "love is a mental disease".
It only takes one extraordinary guy (at least in her eyes) to change her assessment here, though... ;)
Beyond that, though, there's something else I want to point to. There was a Haruhi episode I rewatched in order to get a better feel for Koizumi's esper powers. That episode included a scene in which the Computer Club President's girlfriend hires Haruhi's SOS Brigade to search for her missing boyfriend. During the discussion between Haruhi and the CC President's girlfriend, Haruhi actually acted like she was empathizing with the CC President's girlfriend's romantic hurts - Kyon made incredulous narration over it, but to me, it clearly shows that Haruhi is not HARDCORE set against romance. If she was, I don't think that Haruhi could fake that empathy over romantic hurts... or maybe she's not even faking it. Maybe she was truly empathizing, given her own disappointments with guys.
It's not hard at all for me to imagine her falling for a charismatic intelligent seventeen year old Japanese male that is beloved by an empire of aliens and who is usually very nice and complimentary towards her, and even gives her a beautiful necklace that's ideal for her. Nor is it hard for me to see her acting upon genuine attraction for a guy; at least not once a sufficient catalyst is provided - the gift of the necklace being a very believable catalyst I think.
Actually, I had been much more worried about people buying Jinnai falling for Haruhi; particularly given Jinnai's reaction to Diva's advances in the Alternate World.
All of this being said, I think that I might now see the real reason why you weren't too keen on the Haruhi/Jinnai shipping - it's not Haruhi/Kyon at all; you're just afraid Haruhi/Jinnai might jeopardize a good Haruhi/Fatora scene! :D
Don't worry - I may have a way for you to get the desired Haruhi/Fatora scene(s) while still staying true to my Haruhi/Jinnai shipping. You can call it "The Compromise of Spanner and Triple R" if you want, in the vein of my naming scheme for these chapters.
What Haruhi does to Mikuru, and what Fatora does to the women she dominates, can't really be considered love or romance.
With the possible exception of Fatora's relationship with Alielle, I agree.
In the case of Fatora, I'm not saying that she should hop into bed with her. However, Fatora is clearly trying to intimidate and dominate her - and as Brigade Chief, it's not the kind of thing I think she would stand for! Haruhi, once "challenged" in this way, should take steps to bend Fatora to her will, whether it be through counter-intimidation, blackmail, or whatever other tools prove to be convenient. Not that she'd necessarily be successful - both of them have very strong wills, and a rather painful lack of common sense. Their clash of wills could be most entertaining.
Ok, I totally agree with you here. I definitely see your point here, and agree with you here. It's certainly something I'll keep in mind for future writing - either at the end of this fanfic, or in a future one.
Honestly... I made the romance/sex argument concerning Haruhi more in the hopes that it would change your mind on Haruhi/Jinnai than in the hopes that it would change your mind on how Haruhi and Fatora would relate to one another. ;)
Note, that's just my interpretation of both their characters. Your interpretation may be different, but it's not necessarily bad or wrong. I'll admit, though, that that's the kind of thing I hoped for when you promised a Fatora/Haruhi comedy scene. It's like I said, you can't please me all the time, and it's a mistake to even try!
Hopefully, I'll have a chance to read chapter 18 tomorrow.
I may have Chapter 19 up by then as well. Here's hoping!
:)
Edit: I don't know about your comparisons of Yuki and Ifurita. Do you think that you might be selling Ifurita a bit short there, or reading too much into what Yuki did? I mean - has Yuki shown an ability to travel through dimensions; to shut down an out of control Eye of God; to destroy entire cities in a few blasts of energy?
You wrote that Yuki "completely rewrote the world". Did she do that, or did she just change the world as it pertained to four people - Haruhi, herself, Kyon, and Itsuki? I mean, was their evidence of anything else about the world having changed, or was it purely localized to North High?
If it was purely localized, it might be a bit of a logic leap to say that Yuki is as powerful a reality warper as you have argued for here.
If it really was truly global... I have to say that it ruins the whole point of the canon Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya for me. I mean, if Yuki has that kind of power, then why the hell would she care the least bit about Haruhi Suzumiya? It just doesn't fit.
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For Rowan and Spanner...
Chapter 19 is up!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=9220734&posted=1#post9220734
Well, Rowan, I hope that you like this chapter a bit more than the last one! This is the final cliffhanger.
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All right! A few days late, but I finally dug into chapter 18!
Haruhi's conversation with smug Galus was well-handled. It's comforting to see that Galus STILL underestimates the Power of Love! And the Power of Friendship. Oh, you bad-guy types... don't you ever learn?
The "phantom scope" seemed a little too convenient, and I think it might turn out to be a bit weighty an albatross to deal with in the long run. A device like that, if widely manufactured, would all but end the Shadow Tribe as a threat! (Not to mention, render Nanami's power virtually useless.) Still, since this story is almost over, and the sequel probably won't feature them as prominently, I guess it's okay.
The scene with Jinnai's grudging vow not to kill that rat Mizuhara was well-played.
Galus's careful efforts to neutralize our heroes' abilities without killing them have my anticipation growing steadily. It's pretty clear that he could kill our heroes anytime that he wants to - if those acid shots had been projectile weapons instead, he could have easily killed Mikuru, for instance. You're clearly building up to something big for Galus to have gone through all this trouble; I very much hope it's not just a big ol' gloating session. It's always a let-down to see an otherwise careful villian on the verge of success gather the heroes because there's nothing they can do about it - only they do something about it. :P
I was pleased with Itsuki's announcement that he is immune to Yuki's time-freezing abilities. That's a good fix for the problem, and it looks like it might give Itsuki a moment in the spotlight as well.
Team Fujisawa's heroic struggle against Galus's trap was well-done, though I was a bit irked that Galus was apparently deliberately trying to kill them - and then changed his mind! As a writer, my advice would be to give Galus a mindset and then stick with it. If he needs them alive, have him spare them. If he wants them dead, keep it that way unless a legitimate reason comes up for his sparing them.
A better solution in this case, I think, would have been to either had Galus's intentions be non-lethal from the start, or allowed our heroes to escape to someplace temporarily beyond Galus's immediate reach before falling unconscious (maybe breaking through the wall would lead into a hard-to-access part of the facility, for instance).
(Edit: After reading Chapter 19, I know why Galus chose to spare them. Even so, I think this passage would have been better handled either with Galus planning to spare them from the start, planning to spare them IF they survived, or unable to kill them because they escaped. The fickle, spur-of-the-moment change of heart doesn't suit Galus well.)
Interesting, how in spite of all the preperations to deal with Yuki's time freezing ability, that ability never really came into play during the battle. :)
Finally, SOS Man leads the Bugrom in their finest hour! I enjoyed his speech (especially the part where he nearly went into convulsions regarding the Bugrom/Roshtaria truce). And so ends Chapter 18!
And now, Chapter 19. I definitely appreciated Kyon's comparison of Galus's methods to those of a certain Clown Prince of Crime. I have to admit, though, that I'm still holding out hope that there's an actual method to Galus's madness, rather than madness for madness's sake.
And now, Nanoha returns! I have to admit I was kind of expecting to see her around this point. :)
I chuckled a bit at the representation of Yuki's shackles being that of a thirty foot wall of screaming Shadow Tribe heads, and at Makoto's uneasiness both at the screaming wall and at Yuki's nonchalant attitude about it.
I enjoyed Kyon's and Nanoha's little heart-to-heart, and felt that it was quite well-done. Nanoha's reasons for changing sides were well-presented and believable, especially given her previous history.
At last, we have Galus spilling his guts in regards to his master plan! I'm glad to see that he didn't just gather all the heroes to gloat at them, but he still does seem to be taking some rather odd risks given that he's not a god QUITE yet. On the other hand, he seems to have done a pretty good job in preparing for Yuki's betrayal. That was good to see.
Then, SOS Man to the rescue! I was a bit disgruntled at Galus's utter shock that Jinnai came at all. Even assuming that Galus knew the conditions that Jinnai had to satisfy to escape imprisonment, wouldn't Galus have considered the possibility that Jinnai might LIE in order to get out? He seemed awfully confident that Jinnai was permanently removed from the equasion, when it seems like there are many ways Jinnai could have weaseled out of his predicament, even discounting those that depend on the Power of Love. While it was certainly appropriate for Galus to taunt Haruhi with images of Jinnai stewing in jail forever due to Haruhi's betrayal, it's not something Galus should have taken so far to heart himself.
That said, though, I have to admit that I loved the scenes described during the rescue. Jinnai's rescue scene was quite amusing and well-done, both in the very Jinnai-esque strategies involved (flinging a Super Bugrom at the barrier to break it down was an especially nice touch), and in the confrontation scene on the rooftop.
In the end, though, Galus reveals his Mecha-Galus powers! Will Galus triumph over his foes? (No.) Will everyone be blown to bits by the hydrogen bomb? (No.) Will Jinnai and Haruhi be reunited at last? (Yes. Well, they kinda have already, I guess.) Stay tuned for the answers to these gripping questions!!!
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Oh, I forgot to respond to your question about Yuki's powers. To be honest, I don't know how far-reaching Yuki's world-changing abilities are. I know that the events happen (they take place in Novel #4, "The Vanishment of Haruhi Suzumiya"), but I don't know whether the fanfiction authors may have embellished exactly what Yuki did in that novel.
Regardless, even within the scope of the first season of the anime, we've witnessed some rather phenominal abilities on the part of the Human Interfaces we've seen, such as Ryoko's ability to transform a classroom into a sealed environment, Ryoko's ability to hold Kyon helplessly in place, Ryoko's and Yuki's ability to transform matter from one form to another, and so on.
Ifurita's abilities, from what we saw of them, seemed strictly limited to combat techniques. Even in the case of her shutting down the Eye of God, that wasn't her own ability; it was Makoto, working through her using the Power Key Staff she'd left with him. Now, to be sure, with the techniques Ifurita has picked up over the ages she was an incredible force to be reckoned with, the fact still remains that her chosen methods for dealing with foes involves shooting stuff at them, rather than, say, transforming them into a chunk of lead.
While we may disagree on how powerful each respective entity may be, I think that the evidence we've seen shows Yuki to have the upper hand in close-quarters combat. Even if she can't nuke a city, if Yuki can render you completely helpless she's gonna win any one-on-one encounter.
Oh, good grief - this is starting to sound like one of those lame Superman vs. Goku threads. XD
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Oh, I forgot to respond to your question about Yuki's powers. To be honest, I don't know how far-reaching Yuki's world-changing abilities are. I know that the events happen (they take place in Novel #4, "The Vanishment of Haruhi Suzumiya"), but I don't know whether the fanfiction authors may have embellished exactly what Yuki did in that novel.
Regardless, even within the scope of the first season of the anime, we've witnessed some rather phenominal abilities on the part of the Human Interfaces we've seen, such as Ryoko's ability to transform a classroom into a sealed environment, Ryoko's ability to hold Kyon helplessly in place, Ryoko's and Yuki's ability to transform matter from one form to another, and so on.
Ifurita's abilities, from what we saw of them, seemed strictly limited to combat techniques. Even in the case of her shutting down the Eye of God, that wasn't her own ability; it was Makoto, working through her using the Power Key Staff she'd left with him. Now, to be sure, with the techniques Ifurita has picked up over the ages she was an incredible force to be reckoned with, the fact still remains that her chosen methods for dealing with foes involves shooting stuff at them, rather than, say, transforming them into a chunk of lead.
While we may disagree on how powerful each respective entity may be, I think that the evidence we've seen shows Yuki to have the upper hand in close-quarters combat. Even if she can't nuke a city, if Yuki can render you completely helpless she's gonna win any one-on-one encounter.
Oh, good grief - this is starting to sound like one of those lame Superman vs. Goku threads. XD
Oh, I think that Yuki would defeat Ifurita in one-on-one close-quarters combat as well - if nothing else, Yuki is probably faster.
I'd just like to think that there's something that Yuki would gain from becoming a Demon God. That's just personal preference on my part, though.
It's interesting that you mentioned Superman vs. Goku... are you a regular poster on Comic Book Resources forums, the site where I have this fanfic up, and where Superman vs. Goku is kind of infamous? ;)
I'll have more to say in another response to your chapter reviews in a while.
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All right! A few days late, but I finally dug into chapter 18!
No problem on the lateness! The review itself certainly made the wait for it worth it. :)
Haruhi's conversation with smug Galus was well-handled. It's comforting to see that Galus STILL underestimates the Power of Love! And the Power of Friendship. Oh, you bad-guy types... don't you ever learn?
lol I'm glad that you liked that scene. I did spend a fair bit of time on that scene.
The "phantom scope" seemed a little too convenient, and I think it might turn out to be a bit weighty an albatross to deal with in the long run. A device like that, if widely manufactured, would all but end the Shadow Tribe as a threat! (Not to mention, render Nanami's power virtually useless.) Still, since this story is almost over, and the sequel probably won't feature them as prominently, I guess it's okay.
Perhaps the Shadow Tribe wins in Chapter 20 and soon after becomes the skynet of El Hazard. ;) If so, a phantom scope might be necessary for the humans of El Hazard to just have a chance at staying alive.
In any event, I understand the valid criticisms that you and Rowan made of the Phantom Scope. It was, for me, a necessary plot device in order to set up certain scenes the way that I wanted them to be set up. It also makes it a bit less difficult to write dialogue as there's now a new item upon which the protagonist can extend some focus to.
Also, I liked the Ghostbusters cartoon when I was growing up. I kind of liked the idea of Makoto as a younger Egon Spangler, you could say - using El Hazard's equivalent of a ghost detector. ;)
The scene with Jinnai's grudging vow not to kill that rat Mizuhara was well-played.
I'm glad that came across well.
Galus's careful efforts to neutralize our heroes' abilities without killing them have my anticipation growing steadily.
I'm glad that the suspenseful goal of me having Galus using those neutralization efforts were appreciated by you.
I was pleased with Itsuki's announcement that he is immune to Yuki's time-freezing abilities. That's a good fix for the problem, and it looks like it might give Itsuki a moment in the spotlight as well.
Excellent! This was my main concern for Chapter 18 - finding a plot progression and method that would logically fix the problem of Yuki's time freeze.
Team Fujisawa's heroic struggle against Galus's trap was well-done, though I was a bit irked that Galus was apparently deliberately trying to kill them - and then changed his mind! As a writer, my advice would be to give Galus a mindset and then stick with it. If he needs them alive, have him spare them. If he wants them dead, keep it that way unless a legitimate reason comes up for his sparing them.
A better solution in this case, I think, would have been to either had Galus's intentions be non-lethal from the start, or allowed our heroes to escape to someplace temporarily beyond Galus's immediate reach before falling unconscious (maybe breaking through the wall would lead into a hard-to-access part of the facility, for instance).
(Edit: After reading Chapter 19, I know why Galus chose to spare them. Even so, I think this passage would have been better handled either with Galus planning to spare them from the start, planning to spare them IF they survived, or unable to kill them because they escaped. The fickle, spur-of-the-moment change of heart doesn't suit Galus well.)
I understand your criticisms here as well. I'm going to explain where I'm coming from with my handling of Galus at the end of this post, since most of your negative assessments for these two chapters center around him.
Interesting, how in spite of all the preperations to deal with Yuki's time freezing ability, that ability never really came into play during the battle. :)
Well, she did try to get it off once, but failed to do so. Later, there was no point in her using it since Itsuki was in bodily contact with Makoto and Kyon - might as well just blast at them given that fact.
Finally, SOS Man leads the Bugrom in their finest hour! I enjoyed his speech (especially the part where he nearly went into convulsions regarding the Bugrom/Roshtaria truce). And so ends Chapter 18!
I'm glad that you and Rowan both enjoyed the speech. You and Rowan certainly share similar approaches and tastes - your reviews for Chapter 18 are quite similar.
And now, Chapter 19. I definitely appreciated Kyon's comparison of Galus's methods to those of a certain Clown Prince of Crime. I have to admit, though, that I'm still holding out hope that there's an actual method to Galus's madness, rather than madness for madness's sake.
And now, Nanoha returns! I have to admit I was kind of expecting to see her around this point. :)
On the one hand, I was hoping that her inclusion here might have surprised you; adding to the drama (i.e. "I wonder if Triple R has forgotten about Nanoha?")
On the other hand, it's nice to know that you didn't think that I had forgotten about Nanoha.
I chuckled a bit at the representation of Yuki's shackles being that of a thirty foot wall of screaming Shadow Tribe heads, and at Makoto's uneasiness both at the screaming wall and at Yuki's nonchalant attitude about it.
I enjoyed Kyon's and Nanoha's little heart-to-heart, and felt that it was quite well-done. Nanoha's reasons for changing sides were well-presented and believable, especially given her previous history.
Thank you!
I'm glad that these scenes resonated well. With most chapters, I have no serious worries with any Haruhi and/or Jinnai scene, so if I get some good protagonist scenes in, it gives me a shot at an uniformly good chapter.
Alas... ;)
At last, we have Galus spilling his guts in regards to his master plan! I'm glad to see that he didn't just gather all the heroes to gloat at them, but he still does seem to be taking some rather odd risks given that he's not a god QUITE yet. On the other hand, he seems to have done a pretty good job in preparing for Yuki's betrayal. That was good to see.
Then, SOS Man to the rescue! I was a bit disgruntled at Galus's utter shock that Jinnai came at all. Even assuming that Galus knew the conditions that Jinnai had to satisfy to escape imprisonment, wouldn't Galus have considered the possibility that Jinnai might LIE in order to get out? He seemed awfully confident that Jinnai was permanently removed from the equasion, when it seems like there are many ways Jinnai could have weaseled out of his predicament, even discounting those that depend on the Power of Love. While it was certainly appropriate for Galus to taunt Haruhi with images of Jinnai stewing in jail forever due to Haruhi's betrayal, it's not something Galus should have taken so far to heart himself.
That said, though, I have to admit that I loved the scenes described during the rescue. Jinnai's rescue scene was quite amusing and well-done, both in the very Jinnai-esque strategies involved (flinging a Super Bugrom at the barrier to break it down was an especially nice touch), and in the confrontation scene on the rooftop.
In the end, though, Galus reveals his Mecha-Galus powers! Will Galus triumph over his foes? (No.) Will everyone be blown to bits by the hydrogen bomb? (No.) Will Jinnai and Haruhi be reunited at last? (Yes. Well, they kinda have already, I guess.) Stay tuned for the answers to these gripping questions!!!
Well, I'm very glad that you enjoyed the handling of SOS Man for this chapter! I had intended for that to be the highlight of it.
Now, as for Galus...
I understand where you're coming from on him. But... and I just want to throw this out there for casual consideration... do you think that you might be expecting a bit too much from him? I mean, you (and perhaps Rowan as well) seem to want me to write Galus as almost infallible.
I certainly can understand how a person reviewing a fanfic would naturally pay close attention to characters making mistakes - particularly plot-moving characters like main antagonists making mistakes. Galus absolutely made a mistake in dismissing Jinnai (and hence the Bugrom Empire) as a variable worth considering given the results of the Haruhi/Jinnai confrontation of Chapter 16.
However, is it truly out of character for him to make that mistake?
I think that upon viewing the entire Haruhi/Jinnai argument (and he did - if you reread the last post for Chapter 16, it points out how Galus watched the entire argument from afar), that Galus would tend to put himself in Jinnai's shoes and think...
If any woman had betrayed me the way that the Bugrom Queen just betrayed Jinnai, I would think "to hell with her". On top of that, there's no way I'd bow to any person's attempt to force me to promise to not take revenge on my most bitter enemy or enemies. Likewise, Jinnai is through. He's not coming back from this.
Galus simply projects his own personality unto Jinnai, and takes comfort in removing Jinnai as a variable to concern himself with. This is pleasing to Galus since now he can focus exclusively on the Roshtarian contingent. To me, it's a believable thing for Galus to do. In fact, I would say that it reflects Galus' greatest weakness - his inability to understand the drives and determinations of other people, since he himself has become very ruthless and unattached emotionally to almost everybody.
I don't think that a villain needs to be infallible in order to be compelling. I think that he or she simply needs to be a careful planner in general, and to have a certain level of power and/or influence to him or her.
Now, as for Galus' overall approach to the Roshtarians - I'll admit that I was writing him as being a bit fickle there. This is for a couple reasons...
1. I want to keep you and Rowan guessing as to what Galus will do next; to add to the suspense as it were. Part of the reason why I disagree with the "infallible villain" notion is that it makes such a villain too predictable and hence lacking in suspense, in my view.
In general, I want unpredictability to be one of the main positives to my fanfics - I want them to twist and turn in ways that surprise the readers (incidentally, I dislike how Chapter 20 seems predictable to you - mind you, perhaps a predictable conclusion is forgivable after how both you and Rowan seemed to find a couple earlier plot twists to be surprising).
2. As a writer, there's certain scenes I want to write. I conceive of scenes that I think would make for good and/or fun reads, and then I try to create a plot that will make those scenes happen.
Basically, I wanted to write a dramatic death trap scene, I wanted to write a Galus tries to coerce the Roshtarians into joining him scene, and I wanted to write SOS Man as the startling hero that shockingly appears to try to stop a stunned Galus scene - starling given how SOS Man is originally the villainous Katsuhiko Jinnai, and who has been put in quite a bind by Haruhi Suzumiya; the very same person who needs rescuing right now.
I had actually considered not showing Jinnai (or the bugrom) AT ALL until SOS Man's arrival in Chapter 19, to even add more oomph to his appearance. In retrospect, maybe I should have went that way... though I found the idea of a SOS Man/bugrom rally scene too good to pass up (and I also felt that Nanoha's long layoff before making a timely rescue was probably enough of a startling reappearance on its own).
So... sometimes, I ask myself questions like "This may be a little bit hard to swallow... but it would make for a great scene or two! Is it worth it?" - by the way, the same question went through my mind with Haruhi/Jinnai flying over the Roshtarian city walls back in Chapter 13. Is a great scene worth a set-up that requires some suspension of disbelief (obviously in the case of the Haruhi/Jinnai flying scene I decided 'yes')? Also, is it possible your readers won't even notice the questionable parts in your plot - hence all they see is the great scene?
Well, one thing you and Rowan have shown - you guys don't miss any holes at all. :D I certainly can't pull a fast one by you - heck, you guys even notice stuff that I myself never thought of (i.e. it honestly never occurred to me that Galus could just use a similar method to kill Mikuru instead of shooting acid into her eyes).
So balancing plot believability with fun scene creation and unpredictable plots is perhaps my greatest challenge as a writer.
Well, if after reading all of this, you'd still prefer Galus to be a more careful villain, I can make his dialogue in Chapter 20 reflect that a bit more. I just felt that I should explain why I wrote him the way that I did, as well as offering some insight into my overall approach when writing fiction - as for Galus' failure to factor Jinnai in at all, it was to make SOS Man's arrival that much more... pulse-pounding, I guess you could say - and I also felt that it may be believable for Galus to fail to factor Jinnai in; as for Galus' changing approach to the Roshtarians - yeah, that's probably out of character for him, but I thought it could make for a good scene or two.
Anyway, thanks for the great reviews! And also, this is my first major fanfic in a long time, so it's only natural for it to have some weaknesses. It's good to have them pointed out to me for future reference. :)
My final question is if you found Chapters 18 and 19 enjoyable and satisfying taken on the whole? If the pros outweighed the cons as it were?
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And Chapter 19 makes for quite the pleasant update. You answered several of the issues I raised earlier and continued what I liked about Chapter 18 while shedding a lot of what I felt were weaknesses. Makoto, Koizumi, and Kyon's encounter with Yuki was compelling, and the scene "inside" Yuki's head made for quite the amusing contrast between the totally composed, in-charge alien and the unsettled Makoto. It was also nice to see Nanoha return. As Spanner mentioned, her arriving in the nick of time to save the day was kind of predictable but I still wasn't _entirely_ certain, and you put the trope to good effect. I also liked how you had the three earthlings play dead to deceive Galus rather than charge in heroically. It suits their and Yuki's more rational, thoughtful personalities.
Jinnai and the Bugrom assault were the big highlights of this chapter, though, and they didn't disappoint. From the Bugrom blitzkrieg of the Phantom Tribe base to Jinnai's dramatic entrance it was thoroughly entertaining. Good use of the "Was it a bird? Was it a plane?" bit too. That brought a smile to my face. And Galus's failure to take a possible counterattack by the Bugrom into consideration doesn't bother me much since he seemed pretty confident that, even if the Bugrom did attack, they'd never penetrate his headquarters' shields.
I can't say quite the same thing about Galus's offer to Afura Mann's group, though. For someone who supposedly hates humans it seems a bit odd to me that he'd be willing to let them join him just because he's impressed by their strength, especially since some of these humans played critical roles in his prior defeat in the OVA series. And assuming he was successful in obtaining Haruhi's powers, Galus could probably just remake them and FORCE them to serve him as he saw fit anyway. Still, there's nothing wrong with a villain making such a proposal if for no other reason than to try to sow doubts in the protagonists' minds.
There was also a rather strong comic-book feel to this chapter between Galus and Jinnai. It's fitting in a way since that's apparently how Haruhi wants to view Jinnai, and what she wants she often gets even though she doesn't always realize it *coughs*aliens-espers-and-time-travelers*coughs*. It felt surprisingly natural and hilarious in Jinnai's case which is a testament to how you've developed him in this story, but with Galus I still have a hard time picturing him as a pseudo-comic book villain. Both of his back-up plans (sabotaging Yuki and blowing up the base - I really liked Fujisawa's remark about the latter, by the way) were welcome and intelligent inclusions, but the convenient getaway copter on the roof and Spiderman-style webbing struck me as slightly...off, I suppose the word is. It made me picture something more along the lines of "Batman the Animated Series" or one of Spiderman's cartoon series rather than El-Hazard. Regardless, the scene with Jinnai, Groucho, Haruhi, Nahato, and Galus was still a lot of fun to read, and you have me looking forward to seeing what happens next. You might want to offer some reason why Galus, after easily dispatching Haruhi and Grouchi, doesn't also encase Jinnai in webbing to avoid the "Aha! I'm an incredibly powerful villain with nifty powers that I don't actually use when the chips are down!" cliché, though. And, as useful as his new cybernetic abilities are, Galus is still an illusionist so I'd be surprised if he doesn't use that power too at some point.
Anyway, thanks for sharing.
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Chapter 20 - The Finale - is up!: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=269068&page=7
I had the twist at the end planned from the very beginning, but I incorporated Galus into it in a way that I hope will answer all of the valid criticisms that both you, Rowan, and you, Spanner, have made concerning my handling of him.
You'll probably either like my fix of sorts, or you'll hate it. Oh well... I felt it was worth the risk. ;D
Aside from any general review, there is some specific feedback I'd greatly appreciate for the fanfic as a whole.
Spoiler space coming up for anybody reading this post who hasn't read Chapter 20 yet...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
!!!
Ok... How do you feel I did with each of the following over the course of the entire fanfic?
Characterization -
Basic Enjoyment/Fun Factor -
Plot Believability -
General Writing Quality -
OVERALL -
1. Which character do you think I did the best job with?
2. Which character do you think I did the poorest job with?
3. Which chapter/scene was your favorite?
4. Which chapter/scene was your least favorite?
5. Which of the following sequel ideas do you like the best (keep in mind that some are mutually exclusive)?
Prequel: The Shinonome High of Haruhi Suzumiya - This would explore Haruhi Suzumiya's time at Shinonome High in the "original" time-line, eventually showing the journey to El Hazard half-way through. This one is compatible with all of the sequel options.
Sequel Option 1 - El Hazard's Finest - Focus' on SOS Man and Bugwoman; very comic booky; by far the most action-packed sequel based on my current ideas.
Sequel Option 2 - The Conquest of Katsuhiko Jinnai - Jinnai slips back into semi-villainy with a diabolical plot to militarily conquer El Hazard that he hopes will elude the notice of peace-loving Bugrom Queen Haruhi.
Sequel Option 3 - Haruhi Suzumiya's Return from El Hazard - This is the most... standard of the sequel options and will have many different subplots, trying to evenly balance out the El Hazard/Haruhi casts. Similar in style and tone to the fanfic I just finished here, but probably with significantly less action of the fighting sort.
Sequel Option 4 - El Hazard's Lyrical Nanoha - This sequel would be told from the perspective of Nanoha Inverse, and hence she would be the big star, with Kyon a close second, and the Shadow Tribe a close third. It will be a homage to Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.
Tangent Story - The Adventures of Haruki Suzumiya-Jinnai - Loaded with original characters, scenes, and situations, though with some focus on Haruki's life growing up, and hence on his parents and the Bugrom Empire. Cameo appearances by most El Hazard/Haruhi Suzumiya characters. Would probably have something of a Dr. Who/Flash Gordon feel.
Well, that's it for now! I look forward to any and all feedback. :)
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First, let me congratulate you on seeing this through to the end. Completing a story of this length and quality (and in this amount of time too) is an accomplishment you can be proud of. And, overall, I enjoyed the final chapter and felt it was consistent with what came before it. I'll answer the questions you listed more specifically later this week or this weekend and focus on the update itself for now.
The confrontation on the rooftop was well written and probably one of the story's best fights, at least equal to or better than Yuki vs. Mikuru. Jinnai's memory-fueled adrenaline rush and Haruhi's recollection-filled encouragements were well-timed and gave the battle a pleasing sense of emotional depth, and Galus was appropriately vicious and menacing here. I do feel that it was a bit overly comic book-y at moments, but I've mentioned that before and it's likely more a matter of different tastes between us than anything wrong with the story itself. I also really liked the scene with the cheering Bugrom at the end, and I found Jinnai's line at Makoto's "interruption" very amusing.
Nice work with Makoto, Kyon, and Nanoha here too. There was nothing really unpredictable about the trio, but it was entertaining to see Kyon play the optimist to Makoto's pessimist in against type but believable portrayals. And Kyon got the girl too which was nice. :)
The peace treaty signing was entertaining, and I particularly liked Jinnai's goading of Megraton. The allusions to Transformers made the dialogue quite amusing. The bit with Fatora was fun too.
As for the deus ex machine at the end...I'm kind of split on it. I liked your physical description of Haruki and the combination of Jinnai's mannerisms with Haruhi's excitement came across well, and his inclusion does wrap the story up and explain what set the metaphorical wheel spinning...but on the other hand Haruki came pretty much out of the blue. To make a comparison with OVA1 and Ifurita, although the audience didn't know who she was at the beginning they did know that she was responsible for putting the chain of events in motion. When the OVA ended with Ifurita sent to Earth and reuniting with Makoto there was a beautiful sense of symmetry as everything came full circle and completed itself. With your ending, because there was no foreshadowing at all that I can remember (other than Koizumi knowing more than he should, of course, but that's typical for Koizumi *g*) the same sense is missing and Haruki partially comes across as a contrived plot device. Had you included some mention of the "bizarre stranger who came out of nowhere and flashed the SoSBrigade with lights" in Kyon's narrative at some point in the story his sudden introduction might not have felt so abrupt, but as is it feels overly convenient. Your use of him to explain away other "inconsistencies" exacerbated the issue too.
Still, all in all a fun chapter and a good story. Thanks for sharing, and I'll try to go into more detail on some other points later.
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First, let me congratulate you on seeing this through to the end. Completing a story of this length and quality (and in this amount of time too) is an accomplishment you can be proud of.
Thanks a lot. :)
And, overall, I enjoyed the final chapter and felt it was consistent with what came before it. I'll answer the questions you listed more specifically later this week or this weekend and focus on the update itself for now.
No problem. It'll likely be awhile before I start writing any sequels. The specific feedback I asked for is largely for the purposes of getting a good idea of where to go with any sequels.
The confrontation on the rooftop was well written and probably one of the story's best fights, at least equal to or better than Yuki vs. Mikuru. Jinnai's memory-fueled adrenaline rush and Haruhi's recollection-filled encouragements were well-timed and gave the battle a pleasing sense of emotional depth, and Galus was appropriately vicious and menacing here.
I was fairly confident that Jinnai's memory-fueled adrenaline rush would be compelling, but I was a bit worried that Haruhi's recollection-filled encouragements were a bit too lengthy - I'm glad that they both came across well, though.
I do feel that it was a bit overly comic book-y at moments, but I've mentioned that before and it's likely more a matter of different tastes between us than anything wrong with the story itself.
Do you remember when I asked you and Spanner for your choice between three alternate conclusions? Well, each option I had coincided with a different means of Galus being defeated.
Over-The-Top Option 1 - Haruhi becomes Bugwoman and helps SOS Man defeat Galus.
Suspension-Of-Disbelief Option 2 - Jinnai essentially becomes Bruce Willis, steals a gun from Galus, and eventually shoots Galus down with it after Galus blows up pieces of the rooftop in trying to corner Jinnai; Jinnai defeats Galus with little or no help from Haruhi. Here, you have to believe that Jinnai can
signal-handedly defeat a cyborg killing machine - which I felt might be a bit too much for you and Spanner to swallow.
Plot Devicey Option 3 -
Haruhi: Katsuhiko... you have to get up and fight! Hurry!
Galus (to Jinnai): NOW YOU DIE!!!
SOS Man catches Galus' downwards punch, which shocks Galus; SOS Man has a reddish aura of power all around him, as he's been temporarily imbued with the might of Superman by Haruhi's God-like abilities. Still holding Galus' punch in his closed palm, SOS Man rises to his feet.
Jinnai: I'm putting an end to your madness Galus... just as Haruhi and Groucho put an end to mine. Now, I'm going to show you a REAL punch!
Jinnai finishes off Galus with a SOS Punch that's more powerful than a locomotive. ;)
Option 3 was actually my original plan, but I later decided that it would be better if Haruhi was a bit more active in her own rescue.
Option 2 was the only non-comicy booky one, but you and Spanner both shot it down, so... ;)
Truthfully, these were the only three ways I could picture SOS Man winning (Haruhi helps directly, or Jinnai pulls off a Bruce Willis impersonation, or Jinnai goes Superman temporarily). If Haruhi was going to help directly, I was going to have fun with it. ;)
I also really liked the scene with the cheering Bugrom at the end,
I wanted the Bugrom Empire as a whole to have a nice ending for a change, and hence the cheering for their victorious Queen and Supreme Commander. I'm really glad you liked this touch. :)
...and I found Jinnai's line at Makoto's "interruption" very amusing.
Nice work with Makoto, Kyon, and Nanoha here too. There was nothing really unpredictable about the trio, but it was entertaining to see Kyon play the optimist to Makoto's pessimist in against type but believable portrayals. And Kyon got the girl too which was nice. :)
The peace treaty signing was entertaining, and I particularly liked Jinnai's goading of Megraton. The allusions to Transformers made the dialogue quite amusing. The bit with Fatora was fun too.
Well, I'm very pleased that all of this came across well! Basically, it sounds like you enjoyed everything EXCEPT the big twist at the end. Since that means you enjoyed the solid majority of Chapter 20, that's pretty good then.
I had been a tiny bit hopeful that you or Spanner would like Chapter 20 in its entirety, but I also suspected that at least one bit of it would fall flat for one or both of you. For all but one scene to be received well is probably good.
As for the deus ex machine at the end...
I'm... not quite sure why you call him a deus ex machina. It's not like Haruki helped his parents beat Galus or anything like that. Haruki does serve a couple plot device-esque roles, but he doesn't resolve any life-or-death struggles. Not in this fanfic anyway.
I'm kind of split on it. I liked your physical description of Haruki and the combination of Jinnai's mannerisms with Haruhi's excitement came across well,
That's excellent to know. Balancing out aspects of Haruhi with aspects of Jinnai in their future son is key to Haruki coming across well. It sounds like I managed this, which bodes well for any future use I make of him.
...and his inclusion does wrap the story up and explain what set the metaphorical wheel spinning...but on the other hand Haruki came pretty much out of the blue.
I should say here that, while I appreciate the value of the foreshadowing literary device, I'm not as big a fan of it as you are. Put another way, I think it's good to balance out foreshadowed plot developments with startling plot twists - story cohesiveness is important, but so is ensuring that your story isn't overly predictable.
Since Chapter 20 was going to be fairly predictable in how SOS Man vs. Galus would conclude, I felt that the Haruki twist at the end would serve to add at least one welcomed surprising element to Chapter 20.
Haruki IS out of the blue... and intended to be as such.
"Out of the blue" does not equal "bad", in my mind. A lot of readers/viewers like surprises like that from time to time.
For example, I remember an Iron Man comic from the late 90s where Dr. Doom shows up out of the blue to be the villainous mastermind behind a major anti-Iron Man plot. It was a magnificent and dramatic entrance for Doom - one of his coolest villain moments ever, I felt.
To make a comparison with OVA1 and Ifurita, although the audience didn't know who she was at the beginning they did know that she was responsible for putting the chain of events in motion. When the OVA ended with Ifurita sent to Earth and reuniting with Makoto there was a beautiful sense of symmetry as everything came full circle and completed itself.
OTOH, knowing that Ifurita loved Makoto and was the one to send him and the others to El Hazard made the El Hazard OVA much more predictable. For one, it was absolutely clear that Jinnai wasn't going to maintain control of Ifurita, which took a lot of the drama out of the Jinnai/Ifurita/Makoto scene in the final episode of the OVA, at least for me.
I agree with you on the beautiful sense of symmetry, but it came at a price.
With my own fanfic, I had hoped that Koizumi and Kyon in Chapter 20 referencing their own conversation in Chapter 1 would provide a nice sense of symmetry itself.
With your ending, because there was no foreshadowing at all that I can remember (other than Koizumi knowing more than he should, of course, but that's typical for Koizumi *g*) the same sense is missing and Haruki partially comes across as a contrived plot device.
I... really don't see how he's any more of a contrived plot device than Ifurita herself is. Both are used in almost identical ways to send people to El Hazard. Both serve plot device-esque roles but they're more than plot devices.
Had you included some mention of the "bizarre stranger who came out of nowhere and flashed the SoSBrigade with lights" in Kyon's narrative at some point in the story his sudden introduction might not have felt so abrupt, but as is it feels overly convenient.
Rowan, given the nature of who Haruki is surely you must understand why I didn't want to tip my hat to him at all. It's easy to imagine, for example, that if I had incorporated the line that you suggested into an earlier chapter, that you and Spanner would ask "Why aren't Kyon and Koizumi brainstorming more on who this stranger could be? Why aren't they bringing him up to their new El Hazard friends?"
And once I walk down THAT path, I risk giving the entire secret away... which would spoil the Haruhi/Jinnai plot-line entirely.
I'm a bit surprised that Haruki, in and of himself, bothered you this much. I understand where you're coming from on him, but at the same time, I hope that you can see the rationale behind my use of him in this story, as well as my rationale for not hinting at him at all beforehand. I truly did not think that Haruki, in and of himself, would bother you anywhere near this much.
That being said, I was aware of the risks of having Haruki provide a startling explanation to Galus'
out-of-character behavior as of late. With that in mind...
Your use of him to explain away other "inconsistencies" exacerbated the issue too.
It's unfortunate that my explanation to Galus' "inconsistencies" didn't resonate with you... but I'll concede this particular complaint to you, since I knew going in that you and Spanner might not like this PARTICULAR way that I used Haruki.
Is it better for Galus to act out of character for no apparent reason, or is it better for Galus to act out of character because he's being manipulated from behind the scenes?
There's pros and cons both ways, and I was hopeful that you and Spanner would prefer the latter, but I can understand it if you don't.
Still, all in all a fun chapter and a good story. Thanks for sharing, and I'll try to go into more detail on some other points later.
Thanks. :)
All of our disagreements aside, I now have a good read of what you like - for conclusions, at least, it seems that you prefer the neat and tidy cohesive approach with out any big plot twists at the end. If Spanner shares that sentiment, it'll give me a good idea of how to write any future El Hazard fanfic conclusions.
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Before I start my review of Chapter 20, I wanted to address a couple things that you mentioned.
First off, you expressed disappointment that I was apparently predicting the events of the final chapter. Please don't take that too seriously... While you pride yourself on surprises and randomness to keep the reader guessing, please understand that a longtime reader of fiction like myself is going to recognize patterns in stories. None of my "predictions" were specific enough to guarantee anything except a happy ending - and it's really not unreasonable to expect a happy ending, given the way that the story has proceeded so far.
There are authors out there, to be sure, who are so determined to buck the "natural" storytelling order that they'll pull a tragic ending out of an otherwise uplifting story, but such attempts, while shocking, are merely shocking for shock's value; they're rarely examples of good storytelling. Predictable does NOT always equal bad.
In this case, pretty much the only way that you could fail to meet my expectations would be to suddeny twist the story around into some kind of grim, nightmarish conclusion where everybody dies and Gauls wins forever bwahahahaha! While that kind of ending would, indeed, be surprising, that doesn't mean that it would be a GOOD ending. Certainly not one worthy of this story as it's been written so far.
To respond to your analysis of Galus's fallability, you're right, we may have been assigning Galus a bit too much credit. On the other hand, both in this fanfiction and in the original source material, Galus has been presented as a schemer with a brilliant mind. In otherwords, someone who is probably smarter than I am. XD So, when judging whether a situation should be considered a "plothole" or not in his case, I try to estimate, "Is that a problem that I'd be able to see?" and then modify a bit to try to accound for Galus's prejudices and megalomania. It's not an exact science, but that's where I'm coming from.
(It's a bit of a modification on the "5-year old" test that more comic book writers SHOULD apply to their work than actually do: Does this plan have holes in it that a 5-year old could see? Failure to apply this rule is one of the reasons that comic books and other similar media have the "kid's stuff" stigma that they do, in spite of the fact that so many works are well above that level.)
Anyway, on to Chapter 20!
We start off with Galus's brutal thrashing of Jinnai. I appreciated the glance into Galus's mindset, and how he realized that with everything about to blow up around him this was the only way to salvage even a partial victory. This is the Galus we like to see, one that always has a back-up plan! Jinnai's futile come-back was well-done as well; it was good to see him get a few blows in. I have to admit, though, that if I was Galus I might have been a little more... drastic in my abuse of Jinnai. While killing him is out, ripping off a limb or two, gouging out an eye, or some other graphic and LASTING injury might have moved Haruhi along the path of despair a little more quickly.
On Kyon's front, I enjoyed their group efforts to diffuse the bomb, and if I'd been a teenaged girl I'd have squeeee'd for sure at Kyon's "I'm gonna die anyway so why not?" kiss with Nanoha. The "Oh crap, I didn't die, what now?" awkwardness that followed was fun, too.
I thought that Haruhi's montage of morale-boosting memories dragged on a hair too long, but the emergence of BUGWOMAN at the end was well-worth the wait. ;D I was glad, too, to finally see an explanation as to why Haruhi modelled Jinnai's superhero alter-ego off of a thoroughly western construct like Superman, when there were many Japanese heros she could have chosen. Superman's origins as a friendly alien hidden among humans would have definitely struck a cord with her. (On the other hand, I'd be shocked if there wasn't SOME Japanese manga hero with similar origins, but I shan't quibble.)
And then Haruhi's and Katsuhiko's romantic pledge of love... It was nice. Hopefully you weren't TOO disappointed that you didn't convert me over to Jinnai/Haruhism by the story's conclusion; I did warn you it'd be a tough sell. And NOT because I was lusting for a Haruhi/Fatora lesbian romp, thankyouverymuch. ^^;
Haruhi then shows her boyfriend off to her friends. I liked this scene a lot, as it had lots of funny awkward moments, "Uh, yeah, I already met Jinnai. He was trying to kill Makoto at the time." Loved the all-too apt comparison of Kyon to Groucho, too.
The peace treaty signing was well-done, with an additional appearance by our old friend Megraton. Then there was Fatora's fate as per the peace accord... It felt just a bit as though were were throwing us reviewers what you percieved to be a bone, but it was cute nonetheless. (Brokeback Muldoon was a great choice of names, by the way; the name alone evokes nearly the entire storyline of the lonely priestesses that find comfort in each others' arms...) Perhaps Fatora will take a greater interest in the political side of her job, now that someone's around to make her life miserable who has at least as much mischief in her soul as she.
Then the wrap-up. The introduction of Haruki Suzumiya-Jinnai would have been a MUCH nicer touch if that "strange student" had actually been mentioned earlier in the story. It's possible that he was, and I just couldn't find it again, but I had no memory of it. It was a good way to explain how Yuki and Itsuki had as much foreknowledge as they did. However, your wording seemed to imply that the two had a near-step-by-step map of everything that was going to happen in El-Hazard. Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it... Anyway, I think it'd be much more suitable for the son of Jinnai and Haruhi to risk everything on a wild gamble:
(Jinnai side) That rat thinks he's bested me, but I'll get my parents together yet!
(Haruhi side) I'm sure if I introduce my parents to each other they'll fall in love! Everything will work out!
He then throws everyone to El-Hazard and lets nature take its course.
The idea of the El-Hazard and Haruhi continuities as we know them being the result of malignant manipulations by the enemy of Jinnai's and Haruhi's son's enemy was an interesting one. It definitely makes me wish that Haruki had at least thrown out a name, though; with his foe remaining nameless, it gives him a deus ex machinaish feel that would have been very easy to avoid.
Anyway, we DID have a happy ending, and believe me I'm happy to see it. Everything wrapped up well, with interesting futures available as an option for each character, plenty of hooks for sequels if you feel the itch, and so on. Well done, I very much enjoyed this final chapter, and the story as a whole!
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Rowan, given the nature of who Haruki is surely you must understand why I didn't want to tip my hat to him at all. It's easy to imagine, for example, that if I had incorporated the line that you suggested into an earlier chapter, that you and Spanner would ask "Why aren't Kyon and Koizumi brainstorming more on who this stranger could be? Why aren't they bringing him up to their new El Hazard friends?"
And once I walk down THAT path, I risk giving the entire secret away... which would spoil the Haruhi/Jinnai plot-line entirely.
Now that I've read Rowan's thoughts and your reply, I wanted to touch on this topic, since it's one that I brought up in my review as well.
There are ways to have introduced Haruki early in the story without necessarily having given anything away. For instance, he could have simply been the student representative who volunteered to show Haruhi and friends around. Perhaps Kyon could have noticed that he seemed familiar somehow, but I don't think that would have given things away if you'd left it at that. (You'd probably have to have disguised the fact that HE was the one to send them to El-Hazard, in this case.)
Or, if you prefer, you could have simply passed him off as a member of a faction of time travellers (there's multiple factions, I believe, including Mikuru's), who approached Itsuki's Organization with a proposal that they found to be advantageous. Given the nature of the Haruhi universe, I think this is something that most Haruhi fans would pass off as acceptable, and not immediately come to the conclusion that he's related to any of the cast. (After all, Mikuru's not related to anyone - as far as we know.)
Both of these solutions would have left the guy as a relative non-entity - until you sprung him as being significant after all. It's a very different situation than the one with Ifurita, I think.
While you did avoid the problem of, "Why don't Kyon and Itsuki talk about this strange dude that sent them here?", you replaced it with the problem of, "Wait, a strange dude sent them here? Why didn't Kyon and Itsuki ever talk about him earlier in the story?"
While I'm admittedly unfamiliar with the Iron Man / Dr. Doom plotline you mentioned, I don't think this is very similar. Rather than characters omitting valuable information because they don't know about it (I'm guessing Iron Man didn't know about Dr. Doom's involvement), or because they think it's irrelevant, they've omitted it because the author doesn't want the readers to know about it, even though it's something that the characters should be more interested in.
Anyway, now onto the post story questions you asked!
Ok... How do you feel I did with each of the following over the course of the entire fanfic?
Characterization -
Jinnai and Haruhi were presented extraordinarily well, even granting my personal skepticism at pairing them romantically.
Kyon seemed, perhaps, a little off at times, and when those times occurred, I mentioned them. He was predominantly well-done, though I think he could have been a bit whinier. ;D
Nanami was a bit rough to start with, but once you recognized it she improved greatly.
I enjoyed the Fatora scenes, but had to admit that she seemed a little more restrained than she should have been.
Galus seemed a little iffy; most of the time he was the mwahaha schemer I felt he should be, but sometimes he seemed jarringly random in his actions.
Pretty much all the rest of the canon casts were presented well.
I enjoyed almost all of the original characters you added and some, like Prince Randorm, I found myself wishing had shown up a little more later on rather than making an appearance and then disappearing into the mists of time.
Basic Enjoyment/Fun Factor -
It was a good romp. I won't say that it's the best fanfiction that I've ever read, but it's one that I read through to the end and enjoyed most of the ride.
Plot Believability -
Pretty good. I had some discomfort with Galus's plans and the conclusions that he jumped to, but for the most part the characters moved the plot along in sensible ways.
General Writing Quality -
To be honest, the comic-booky style didn't really work for me. (It doesn't work very well for me in comic books, either, to be honest. XD) I thought that the gratuitous use of italics and boldface text were more distracting than engaging. This almost certainly is more a matter of opinion, though, than an evaluation of your writing quality.
Setting that aside, your grammar and spelling were predominantly good. I have no complaints.
OVERALL -
There were times in this story when you seemed to add elements without thinking carefully enough about how they would affect the plot or reflect upon the characters, such as Galus's eye-trap for Mikuru, the Shadow Tribe Detector, the whole deal with there being only one school in El-Hazard, and so on. Pretty much the only moments that this story felt uneven were at those times.
Fortunately (while it might seem otherwise from the way my reviews were focused), such moments were pretty few and far between. The story was a good read, and one that I think most fans of either Haruhi or El-Hazard would enjoy. It is a positive addtion to fanfiction as a whole.
1. Which character do you think I did the best job with?
It's a close running between Haruhi and Jinnai, but I think Jinnai edges out, as he's the one that had to go through the most changes for this fanfiction to work. Jinnai's and Haruhi's argument to try to "convert" the other was possibly the best passage in this whole story. You managed to turn Jinnai into a "good guy" of sorts while leaving his basic personality intact. Good work!
2. Which character do you think I did the poorest job with?
If I had to pick one, I guess I'd unfortunately have to say Galus. While his erraticism was no doubt partly to do with your attempting to keep the readers guessing, when a character is TOO random, it simply becomes difficult to enjoy him at all.
3. Which chapter/scene was your favorite?
As you might have guessed, the great Haruhi/Jinnai conquer the world MY way debate.
4. Which chapter/scene was your least favorite?
Probably the Quest for Itsuki's Plant. The whole poisoned Itsuki thing seemed a little too much like filler so the good guys would have something to do.
5. Which of the following sequel ideas do you like the best (keep in mind that some are mutually exclusive)?
Prequel: The Shinonome High of Haruhi Suzumiya - This would explore Haruhi Suzumiya's time at Shinonome High in the "original" time-line, eventually showing the journey to El Hazard half-way through. This one is compatible with all of the sequel options.
I'm not enormously excited about it, but it could be a cool story. I guess the biggest problem is that Haruki's summary sort of gave away all the "good parts" already.
Sequel Option 1 - El Hazard's Finest - Focus' on SOS Man and Bugwoman; very comic booky; by far the most action-packed sequel based on my current ideas.
Sounds cute. Not my favorite among the options, but not bad.
Sequel Option 2 - The Conquest of Katsuhiko Jinnai - Jinnai slips back into semi-villainy with a diabolical plot to militarily conquer El Hazard that he hopes will elude the notice of peace-loving Bugrom Queen Haruhi.
I don't like this one much. Sounds like it opens up a can of worms that would be tough to close again (just how often will the Alliance be expected to trust Jinnai). It COULD work, if Jinnai chose a target they hadn't made peace with but that Haruhi would undoubtedly WANT to make peace with - the remnants of the Shadow Tribe, perhaps?
Sequel Option 3 - Haruhi Suzumiya's Return from El Hazard - This is the most... standard of the sequel options and will have many different subplots, trying to evenly balance out the El Hazard/Haruhi casts. Similar in style and tone to the fanfic I just finished here, but probably with significantly less action of the fighting sort.
Not bad. It's hard for me to imagine why Haruhi would WANT to return from El-Hazard, but it could well be that you have something in mind. Considering that this fanfiction was a good one, more of the same certainly doesn't sound bad at all.
Sequel Option 4 - El Hazard's Lyrical Nanoha - This sequel would be told from the perspective of Nanoha Inverse, and hence she would be the big star, with Kyon a close second, and the Shadow Tribe a close third. It will be a homage to Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.
Given how unbelievably cute I found the Kyon/Nanoha romance angle to be, I like this idea a lot. Kinda surprising from someone that objected so strenuously to the "crossover" in the first place, eh? That said, though, I'd think you'd want to be careful in how much of an homage you actually make this to Lyrical Nanoha. Nanoha Inverse worked best, I think, because she borrowed a few elements from her source material but still evolved into her own character. I think it'd be a mistake to re-tell Lyrical Nanoha in the El-Hazard setting, if that's your plan, but it's not a bad idea at all to tell a new story that evolves the character further while drawing upon some elements from Lyrical Nanoha.
Tangent Story - The Adventures of Haruki Suzumiya-Jinnai - Loaded with original characters, scenes, and situations, though with some focus on Haruki's life growing up, and hence on his parents and the Bugrom Empire. Cameo appearances by most El Hazard/Haruhi Suzumiya characters. Would probably have something of a Dr. Who/Flash Gordon feel.
I'm definitely interested in learning who Haruki's rival is, so I think a story focusing on Haruki is definitely in order in some form!
So, there you have it. The story I'm most interested in is the Nanoha one, but the more-of-the-same option 3 would not be out of order, either. Given the way that the original story ended, the Haruki tangent would not be unwelcome, as well.
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Spanner - Your overall take on Chapter 20, and the story as a whole, was more or less what I had expected and hoped for. :)
...with one exception that I'll get to in a bit.
I want to thank you for all of your inspired advice. Clearly, you've been a fanfic writer and/or reader much longer and/or more frequently than I have, and as such, I've learned a lot from your constructive criticisms, and I appreciate that a lot.
I also appreciate you clarifying how you don't view a predictable ending as necessarily being a bad ending. That's good to know given how the fanfic ended.
On Prince Randorm - he actually showed up in the Chapter 17 peace negotiations; so Chapter 6 wasn't his only appearance. Also, there's a good chance I'll be using him more in future fanfics. :) He's actually based off of a cartoon character from the 80s that I liked a lot - King Randor from the He-Man and the Masters of the Universe cartoon. Not sure if you're familiar with that old cartoon or not.
One of the other people who gave me feedback on this story told me that he loved the bolding and italicizing that I gave to much of Jinnai's dialogue. However, he didn't seem to care all that much about it as it pertained to other characters.
With that in mind - would you be cool with a sequel where I continued the bolding and italicizing for Jinnai and Haruhi alone - cutting it out for all other dialogue and narration? Would you like that better you think?
Some scenes apparently came off better than I thought (such as Haruhi introducing Jinnai to Kyon, which I actually wrote just because I felt I needed to), while what I actually thought would be a very well-received final twist in how the person who set this story all in motion was the son of Haruhi and Jinnai didn't come off that well (although I now understand why).
As for your questions pertaining to Haruki...
1. He gave Itsuki and Yuki some basic background information on El Hazard - such as info on the most important places there. He also gave them info on his father. That was it, though. I get your points on how the son of Haruhi and Jinnai would certainly be a person who tended to thrown caution to the wind (since Haruhi and Jinnai are both, in their own respective ways, people who tend to throw caution to the wind - or, at the very least, Jinnai is "excitingly bold!" as Diva says).
2. I'm going to admit that I haven't decided yet who Haruki's arch-foe will be. It might be another offspring of one popular El Hazard character with another popular Haruhi character, or it might be an entirely original fan creation. I'm mostly wondering if I should make it a son or daughter of Makoto who goes terribly bad...
I'm very glad you liked the Kyon/Nanoha romance. :D
Strange that a romance that I put such little effort into came off better to you than the main overarching one of the entire story that I tried desperately to sell you on...
Speaking of that, I had sincerely hoped that Chapters 16 through 20 would lead to you fully accepting the Haruhi/Jinnai romance. The fact that you liked and accepted my argument that Haruhi and Jinnai were kindred spirits in wanting to change the world to suit their desires struck me as you saying that you might be prepared to buy into the romance between them.
The Chapter 16 argument between Haruhi and Jinnai is also your favorite section of the entire fanfic. You also feel that Haruhi and Jinnai were the two characters that I wrote the best through out the fanfic - and I thank you for that "extraordinarily well" compliment, by the way.
You yourself argued on this very thread that Jinnai's approach to Haruhi's power may pave the way to her gradually and safely coming into a full realization of it. You also agree that Kyon is to Haruhi what Groucho is to Jinnai - hence indicating agreement with yet another similarity between Haruhi and Jinnai (i.e. in how they treat close plutonic friends).
Here's something to consider: Haruhi and Jinnai quickly began to view each other as equals, for various reasons (Haruhi's intelligence and "cunning" in Jinnai's case; Jinnai's bold initiative and hero status amongst the bugrom in Haruhi's case). Viewing someone as an equal goes beyond how Haruhi and Jinnai even treat their closest plutonic friends - hence it could be argued that this represents an uniquely special relationship for each of them - which both of them would soon come to recognize upon reflection - which then naturally leads into a romance.
Within the fanfic itself, there was a lot of narration that I felt provided some strong reasons for why the Haruhi/Jinnai romance would work. This is especially true of Chapter 20. These reasons that I outlined through out the fanfic for why Haruhi/Jinnai would work - and work wonderfully, I think, honestly - were never really touched upon by you in either of your reviews. So... I'm not sure what to make of that. I mean, these are serious reasons, Spanner. I didn't just thoughtlessly take a male character I happened to like and throw him together with a female character I happened to like - there was a lot of consideration, rationale, and thought put behind my choice to go with a Haruhi/Jinnai romance.
I mean, given all of the above, I'm truly at a lost to understand why you still don't accept the Haruhi/Jinnai romance. It's not Haruhi/Fatora - it can't be Haruhi/Kyon because you're perfectly happy with Kyon/Nanoha, so...
Is it Jinnai/Diva? ???
Anyway, there is at least one more idea I have for selling the SOS Man/Bugwoman romance in a sequel - but it's kind of a nuclear solution that I'd rather not have to resort to. If I do resort to it, though, I think that even you would feel compelled to accept and buy into the Haruhi/Jinnai romance. ;)
Given that both the main overarching romance of the story, and the main villain of the last few chapters, didn't resonate with you, there was obviously no hope of this fanfic being even close to one of your favorites. All told, given that I failed to sell you on Haruhi/Jinnai, your response to the fanfic as a whole is the best I could hope for. In fact, I want to thank you for putting aside your skepticism over the central romance of this story in order to try to enjoy the story in general.
One thing I want to reveal to you (I already revealed it to Rowan in chats) - the entire motivation behind this story was the popularity of a fandom within the Haruhi fandom known as gender-bended Haruhi - gender-bended Haruhi himself named "Haruki". ;)
This gender-bended fandom has become surprisingly huge on the internet, and made me think about which actual anime character is most like a male Haruhi Suzumiya.
I eventually came to the conclusion that the answer was Katsuhiko Jinnai, and hence this cross-over pairing struck me as a crack-ship on its face, but actually a very natural and fitting pairing once you dig deeper and resolve moral alignment (Haruhi's a protagonist; Jinnai's an antagonist) issues.
The idea of taking Katsuhiko Jinnai and a crack-ship involving him, and then making his reformation into a full-fledged protagonist both believable and enjoyable, and also making the crack-ship involving him believable and enjoyable, struck me as a very nice and bold challenge for me as a writer, and as a big Jinnai fan. The fact that I'm also a big Haruhi fan was simply icing on the cake. That was the main passion that fueled my writing here - accomplishing that challenge. Of course, I wanted the story as a whole to be good and enjoyable overall, but winning people over to the Haruhi/Jinnai romance, and the Jinnai-as-hero reformation, was my main goal.
So... I'm disappointed that I only accomplished half of my goal here. I've very glad that reformed Jinnai resonates with you, but am disappointment that the very romance that lead to the reformation didn't.
Oh well, as I said, I do have at least one significant trick left up my sleeve for a sequel.
I will be writing one, though I'm not sure when I will start it. I thank you for rounding down my six ideas to three. :)
Perhaps Rowan's further feedback will round it down even more.
Thanks for reading all of this fanfic, and reviewing it so thoroughly for me.
Two things that almost slipped my mind though - the YouTube trailer I made for the fanfic, and the Bugrom Queen Haruhi DeviantArt pic... did you like them? I actually ordered the DeviantArt commission based on your own enthusiasm over the idea of an image of Bugrom Queen Haruhi, as well as my own desire to see what such an image would look like if brought to life.
Have a good weekend! :)
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All of our disagreements aside, I now have a good read of what you like - for conclusions, at least, it seems that you prefer the neat and tidy cohesive approach with out any big plot twists at the end. If Spanner shares that sentiment, it'll give me a good idea of how to write any future El Hazard fanfic conclusions.
Heh, I'm actually somewhat erratic when it comes to my tastes in endings. I really liked OVA1's ending and how it brought everything "full circle" so to speak, but I also enjoyed the endings for the Big O and Neon Genesis Evangelion TV series, both of which raised more questions than they answered. In the case of this story here, the conclusion with Haruki felt flat to me for the reasons Spanner explained more coherently than I did in my previous post.
Characterization
Moderately good to very good. There were moments with Kyon, Nanami, and others where they felt off either in word choice or deed, but you treated the entire cast with respect and didn't demonize or caricature which happens disappointingly often in fan fiction. You also had some marvelous insights into Haruhi and Jinnai's characters.
Basic Enjoyment/Fun Factor
It was entertaining enough for me to read it through from start to finish, and you articulated some pretty interesting ideas and concepts. Certain issues I had with the story structure and characters prevent me from wholehearted excited over the tale, but it reminded me of why I am such a fan of El-Hazard and was a fun adventure to follow.
Plot Believability
The plot itself is fairly plausible, especially because investigating a rumor of missing students at Shinonome is exactly the kind of thing Haruhi would do and from there a trip to El-Hazard is virtually inevitable for Kyon, Koizumi, Yuki, and Mikuru. My criticism here is more with the believable execution OF the plot rather than the plot itself. As I've mentioned before, some of this story felt gimmicky and there were moments where it seemed the story was driving the characters more than the characters driving the story and in a manner that felt forced and artificial.
General Writing Quality
Decent. You know how to use proper grammar and spelling and create effective sentences, which is very important. Your writing style also conveyed the fun and exciting nature of your story which is a commendable accomplishment because it can be a sad thing when a good story is marred beyond enjoyment by poor writing. However, I also feel that your story was much stronger than the writing, and your occasional repetitive use of words and choice of words had me scratching my head at times. So...you have the basics down but there's still room for improvement.
OVERALL
1. Probably either Jinnai or Haruhi. You really seemed to have their characters and mannerisms down quite well.
2. Ura! ^_^V
Heh, more seriously, I'd probably say Nanami in the beginning for the same reasons Spanner has adumbrated.
3. If I had to choose a favorite scene, it would probably be when Haruhi, Mikuru, and Kyon were all reunited in Florestica. You did a great job with those characters and their friendship there and really showed Kyon at his best and most understanding.
4. My least favorite scene might have been when the Priestesses, Makoto, and other heroes stormed Galus's base. Between the Phantom Scope and the other issues I had with the encounter, I felt it wasn't handled well.
5.
Prequel - My thoughts on this is why bother? The outcome is largely the same whether you write it or not and rewriting both El-Hazard: The Magnificent World and The Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi with new characters could be a massive and difficult project.
Sequel Option 1 - As you might have guessed, I'm a bigger fan of Jinnai and Haruhi than I am of their alternate personas. I found SOS Man and Bugwoman amusing in this tale because they were complements rather than the center of attention, and an entire comic book themed story starring these two doesn't excite me much. However, you are also much fonder of the comic book style in this setting than I am so if this is what you feel passionate about writing go ahead. I would say it might work better as a one-shot than another 20 chapter story though.
Sequel Option 2 - Sounds like it could be entertaining, though again I feel it might work better as a one-shot or shorter multi-chapter story than another lengthy tale like this.
Sequel Option 3 - I agree with Spanner on this. Depending on what ideas you have, you could do a fair amount here. And even if Haruhi and Jinnai aren't interested in returning to Earth, I imagine Kyon is (even if he isn't concerned about his little sister, he probably at the very least wants to let her know that he's fine. He wouldn't be a very good big brother if he wasn't even slightly worried what effect his long term absence might have on her). And you could try to do a split feature, with Kyon and Nanoha on one hand and Haruhi and Jinnai on the other having their seemingly separate adventures on Earth and El-Hazard that somehow tie into each other in the end. I also see more obvious opportunities to focus on the extended cast rather than a few key characters in this proposal.
Sequel Option 4 - Again, I think this would work better as a humorous one-short or shorter multi-chapter story. The idea is kind of cute and has a lot of potential for fun, but I'm not really sure what else it would bring to the tale and the fine line between a homage to Lyrical Nanoha in the El-Hazard setting and a pseudo-crossover could be hard to walk.
Tangent - The potential issue with this one is the extensive use of original characters. Original characters in main character roles pose unique challenges, particularly in terms of capturing reader interest. In my own case, I liked your portrayal of Haruki but I'm not sure how keen I'd be to read an entire story starring him. If you want to continue to use him, he might work better in a supporting role in one of your other sequel/prequel concepts.
These are just my opinions, though, and you've surprised me before so I could be quite wrong in my speculation.
Anyway, once again thanks for sharing and sticking with this. It's better than a lot of fan fiction that I've read and was, overall, fairly enjoyable.
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General Writing Quality
Decent. You know how to use proper grammar and spelling and create effective sentences, which is very important. Your writing style also conveyed the fun and exciting nature of your story which is a commendable accomplishment because it can be a sad thing when a good story is marred beyond enjoyment by poor writing. However, I also feel that your story was much stronger than the writing, and your occasional repetitive use of words and choice of words had me scratching my head at times. So...you have the basics down but there's still room for improvement.
Ouch
I know that I'm not a professional writer or even close to that level of refinement, but I honestly have to say that when I've had previous fanfics reviewed in the past, I got much more positive feedback for general writing quality than this.
I also don't know what to make of this - in your review for Chapter 7 you talked about liking my dialogue, but that I was a bit too wordy.
And now... my writing (and hence dialogue) is just decent and I'm not wordy enough? ???
When I think "decent", I think "bare pass" - like a D- in school. Also, the quality chain tends to go from...
Decent to Pretty Good to Good to Very Good to Excellent
Overall, I interpret your feedback as...
B-/C+, B, B, and D-
Not exactly my idea of a good report card.
^^;
It's also a bit worrisome in that I spent a great deal of time making use of an on-line thesaurus while writing this to help ensure that my word choice was not repetitive.
At some level, I almost feel like I'm being damned with feint praise here. Your feedback for the story as a whole is certainly far less enthusiastic than it was for earlier chapters... or really, anything up to Chapter 12.
It makes me wonder if you (and perhaps Spanner as well) felt that the story was simply too long for its own good. If so, I certainly made the right choice in not dragging out the quest for Itsuki's plant/showing the Bugrom Empire conquering nation after nation before Haruhi FINALLY learned the truth.
Big thanks for taking the time to provide additional feedback, in any event.
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Sorry about that. I didn't intend to come across so harshly, and rereading my post I do sound more condescending than I expected. What I meant by decent is that your writing is on par with what I expect from fan fiction I'm willing to read. It's not great, it's not bad, but it gets the job done with some particularly good spots here and there and it's definitely better than "barely passing" as you put it. And I do like your dialogue. It's one of the story's greatest strengths. The descriptive writing, on the other hand, isn't as good in my opinion and parts of your writing style came across as somewhat rough to me, which is why the overall mark is more mixed.
As for why my story review seems less enthusiastic than my chapter reviews, I tried (perhaps too hard) to step back, dampen my excitement, and focus more on technical merits. And when I attempt to be seriously analytical, I often come across as restrained and understated because I'm using a higher standard. Personally, I think this is a pretty good story and you did a good job telling it. It's not on my top 10 list, but I enjoyed reading it and it has some notably creative ideas. My critical feedback was meant to be constructive, and if I focused more on the negatives than on the positives in my last post it's because I've already largely told you what I liked in the chapter reviews and didn't see the need to repeat myself.
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Sorry about that. I didn't intend to come across so harshly, and rereading my post I do sound more condescending than I expected. What I meant by decent is that your writing is on par with what I expect from fan fiction I'm willing to read. It's not great, it's not bad, but it gets the job done with some particularly good spots here and there and it's definitely better than "barely passing" as you put it. And I do like your dialogue. It's one of the story's greatest strengths. The descriptive writing, on the other hand, isn't as good in my opinion and parts of your writing style came across as somewhat rough to me, which is why the overall mark is more mixed.
As for why my story review seems less enthusiastic than my chapter reviews, I tried (perhaps too hard) to step back, dampen my excitement, and focus more on technical merits. And when I attempt to be seriously analytical, I often come across as restrained and understated because I'm using a higher standard. Personally, I think this is a pretty good story and you did a good job telling it. It's not on my top 10 list, but I enjoyed reading it and it has some notably creative ideas. My critical feedback was meant to be constructive, and if I focused more on the negatives than on the positives in my last post it's because I've already largely told you what I liked in the chapter reviews and didn't see the need to repeat myself.
I'm probably going to drop Kyon narration for the sequel.
I thought that it added to this fanfic - and, in fact, there were moments when I hoped that the Kyon narration, along with my handling of Haruhi and Jinnai, would make this fanfic a memorable top 10 classic for both you and Spanner... but in retrospect, the Kyon narration probably took away from it.
For one, it was simply impossible to do 20 chapters of consistently whiney narration voice, while also keeping the fanfic energetic and exciting - simply put, a whiney narration voice would ruin the mood for a lot of scenes in this fanfic. For Spanner, this perhaps translated to Kyon not being whiney enough.
For two, Kyon narration limited what I could do with descriptive writing - if I had went into highly detailed descriptive writing with a Kyon narration voice it would have been a case of Kyon being wildly out of character, I felt. Hence, given how familiar you are with El Hazard, I kind of hoped that your own imagination and memory of the anime would smoothly fill in the gaps for you and make lack of descriptive writing a non-factor. I guess it didn't. So for you, Rowan, this translated to the descriptive writing not being what you wanted.
So, you see, I hope, the Catch-22 that having a Kyon narration voice put me into. It works in the Haruhi anime because you have the animation visuals and hence Kyon narration is simply plot exposition - but with a fanfic, it's a major task since the role of 'descriptive writing' falls to narrator Kyon.
It's regrettable because I usually enjoyed using the Kyon narration voice - I thought that it would be a lot of fun, and make this fanfic really stand out in a good way for you and Spanner - but in reading the constructive criticisms of both you and Spanner, I can see that it weakened this fanfic for both of you.
Oh well.
Apology accepted, anyway. :)
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Ah, I think I've confused you a bit with my support of several aspects of the Jinnai/Haruhi romance while simultaneously refusing the accept the romance as a valid one as a whole. Let me see if I can articulate it a bit better. Also remember that a whole lot of this is driven by my own personal opinions on the characters personalities and backgrounds, and my personal opinions on romance in general. Just because I don't buy it doesn't mean it's wrong.
Probably what I consider to be the core of the problem is something that you seem to feel is actually one of the greatest STRENGTHS of the relationship: Haruhi and Jinnai consider each other to be equals. It is my feeling that one of the defining aspects of both characters is that they have no equals - and that if they find someone that they see with the potential to be an equal, the one and ONLY recourse is a rivalry to firmly establish which of the two is better than the other.
Jinnai MUST be at the top. He may be, in theory, Queen Diva's general, but I don't think there's any doubt in his mind (or the mind of the audience, for that matter) that he's the one really in charge. If Queen Diva were ever to seriously oppose him, he'd find some way to force her to change her mind, or simply find some other way to prove his ultimate superiority that doens't involve using the Bugrom as a tool.
Haruhi MUST be at the top. She's the Brigade Chief, and as much as she says that she wants to find and befriend time travelers, aliens, espers, and sliders, I have little doubt that if she ever managed it, SHE would be choosing the games they play, setting the events they attend, etc., etc.
In both cases, it's hard for me to imagine them in a romantic pairing in which they are not "wearing the pants", as it were. I feel that for a romance to bloom with one of these characters as a member, the other member would need to be the sort who quietly supports them, not someone who calls the shots. Haruhi or Jinnai would certainly acquiesce to the wishes of their partner from time to time, but because they choose to please their partner, not because they believe their partner has an equal place in the decision-making process.
It is my feeling that, if Haruhi and Jinnai were placed into a situation like the one you constructed for this story, each of them would chafe more and more as each attempted to assert their own will. Eventually, one or the other (or both) would blow up, and they'd go their seperate ways.
It seems that you felt the same way, at least to a degree, as you built up their relationship on a series of misunderstandings. Haruhi had no idea that Jinnai was a megalomaniac who's machinations had cost countless lives, and Jinnai had no idea that Haruhi had any problem with that kind of lifestyle. Afterwards, when they finally DID have their confrontation and blow-up, the fact that they were already in love, using that was a good excuse for why they didn't just go their seperate ways.
However, I just don't feel that the love should have developed as far as it did without Jinnai and Haruhi "testing the waters", so to speak, for dominance - and as soon as both members realized that a vy for power was on the table, things should have gotten ugly.
Basically, one or both characters needed to change some fundamental aspects of their characters in order for the romance to work. In this case, I felt it was Jinnai that got "nerfed", as it were. By the end of the story, it was pretty clear that Haruhi was the one that was going to get her way. He wants to kill Makoto, she doesn't want that, Makoto lives. He wants world conquest, she wants to form a club, they form a club. While Haruhi was willing to make some concessions for Jinnai's benefit, she's definitely the one calling she shots. I just can't put myself in a mindset that's able to accept this as a valid development of Jinnai's character, any more than I would have been able to accept a Haruhi that was content to sit back and let Jinnai continue his rampage.
Kyon/Haruhi works because it's easy to imagine Kyon pretty much letting Haruhi have her way, stepping in only when he feels she's gone too far, and her listening to him only because she cares for him and doesn't want to upset him. That's more or less exactly the relationship they have already, to be honest, just without any open declartions of love. XD He's clearly the passive member of their relationship and she the dominant.
It's also a reason why Haruhi/Fatora would never seriously work as a relationship, in spite of all our joking. Neither Fatora nor Haruhi could possibly tolerate a partner as determined to have their own way all the time as the other.
Well... to be fair, I'm throwing around words like "never" awfully freely. My difficulties with the pairing work under the assumption that I know every aspect of the characters involved, which, naturally, can't be true, as there's no way for one person to know another completely. For instance, one of the steps you took to make Jinnai a valid partner for Haruhi was to assert that he'd taken the path of a villain because he felt that taking the role of a villian was the only way he'd be able to properly defeat Makoto. I tend to feel that Jinnai chose that path because it was a convenient one that had been offered to him, and that defeating Makoto was simply one of many goals he had in his desire to acquire power. Both views of his character are valid ones, given what we've seen of him from the anime.
To sum up, I don't feel that Haruhi or Jinnai would ever be satisfied in a relationship with an equal partner; they would each continually attempt to assert dominance, and that would spoil any attempt to actually remain together.
Don't take this to mean, by the way, that I believe that all couples require a dominant and submissive pairing. I just feel that these particular characters have a drive to remain on top that would prevent that kind of equality in a relationship.
Anyway, the reason that I can be so dead-set against the pairing and still provide positive feed back on many of their interactions basically has to do with suspension of disbelief. I was not convinced that the progression you showed us actually would have lead to a romantic pairing, but I was still able to evaluate subsequent scenes AS THOUGH they had been enough. Essentially, I approached scenes like this: "If we were to assume that Jinnai was in love with Haruhi for some reason, is this how he'd come to her rescue?" or "If we were to assume that Jinnai was in love with Haruhi for some reason, is this how he'd react to the S.O.S. Man costume?"
Essentially, I was able to give positive comments about their characterization during their romance by ignoring the fact that I was totally unconvinced that the romance could ever form. Basically, they're in love, deal with it, now is this how they would behave if they were in love?
I will admit that of all the possible paths you could have taken to establish their loving relationship, the one you took is the closest I can think of to something that has a remote chance of working. In the beginning, they were able to get close to one another because each had a thorough enough misunderstanding of the other that each believed that they were the ones in charge - or at the very least, that the other was no threat to their authority. This allowed them to become close in ways that no straight-up rivalry would have allowed.
To end things off, I'd like to mention that I was a bit bemused at one of the things you mentioned about your reasons for attempting this story: That Jinnai was pretty much a male equivalent to Haruhi. While I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment, I disagree with the sentiment that this would make them a natural pairing. Characters - or even real people - that are too much alike rarely make for good couples. It's better if a couple has a variety of traits between them - they should have personalities that complement one another, not exactly match.
By the way, I also am familiar with the "cross-gender" phenominon associated with Haruhi fandom, and instantly recognized Haruki as likely being modeled after the male version of Haruhi. I'll admit I'm a bit cynical about the whole deal; to me, it smacks of the Japanese fans being dissatisfied with seeing the male lead with such a "womanly" submissive personality and taking as much crap as he does from a woman - so they inverted everything so that Kyonko was in the "proper" role. I might be blowing things out of perspective, though. :P And, as cynical as I might be, I do enjoy seeing fanworks that use the cross-gender concept, so it's not exactly something that offends me.
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Oh, one other thing: Kyon narration. I have to admit, Kyon narration works best when ALL of the scenes are ones that Kyon is personally present for. In the novels and even the anime, pretty much nothing is described that Kyon isn't personally there to witness. In this story, a great deal of stuff happens that is outside of Kyon's ability to percieve (like Galus and Nahato's plotting), and while most of it is stuff that he could have been told about later, it's still a little awkward.
I have to agree that it might be best to drop the Kyon narritive, if you're going to be covering the activites of a large cast that are frequently split apart from each other.
Honestly, I think that's the bigger problem here, than Kyon not maintaining a proper level of "snarkiness". :)
And I completely missed that you asked for my opinions on the YouTube trailer and the Haruhi Bugrom Queen pic. I enjoyed the trailer all right; I thought it was well done. I'm afraid I don't really have any specific comments to share on it. I loved the Bugrom Haruhi pic, but I'll have to admit that I was kind of hoping to see Haruhi in a similar getup to Queen Diva, rather than in her school uniform. ;D Still, it was cute enough seeing her with antennae.
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Probably what I consider to be the core of the problem is something that you seem to feel is actually one of the greatest STRENGTHS of the relationship: Haruhi and Jinnai consider each other to be equals. It is my feeling that one of the defining aspects of both characters is that they have no equals - and that if they find someone that they see with the potential to be an equal, the one and ONLY recourse is a rivalry to firmly establish which of the two is better than the other.
I agree with this to a point. I don't think that either Haruhi or Jinnai could be happy in a romance where their partner had them matched or beat in every noticeable area - they each need to have room, so to speak, in having their own unquestioned area of command and expertise.
I think that with Haruhi she actually takes comfort in the fact that Jinnai is physically out of shape (at least relative to her) - it makes her athleticism an edge on him so that she feels that she can hold that over her boyfriend. Also, Jinnai acquiesces to Haruhi's playfulness (Mikuru being the Bugrom's moe mascot, most notably) because he doesn't care about it either way - but for Haruhi this is important in how Jinnai is... giving her room to breath, be herself, and command within her area of expertise.
I think that with Jinnai, he takes comfort in the fact that Haruhi is not his match in military tactics - her failure to notice the Itsuki-is-being-tortured trap when he noticed it quickly comforts him somewhat in retrospect, letting him know that he has an edge that he can hold over his girlfriend. And here, Haruhi acquiescing to letting Jinnai handle the planning out of the military operation to rescue Itsuki gives Jinnai room to breath, be himself, and command within his area of expertise.
So, here, Haruhi and Jinnai view in the other an equal that commands their respect, and an equal that they see much of himself/herself in, causing some admiration given their own egos (Jinnai saying how Haruhi takes after his own heart, while Haruhi loves how Jinnai likes adventuring - and he does, in a sense - just like she does). BUT each holds an important trump card over the other enabling both to feel comfortable in a relationship that is equal on the whole... but in which power shifts from one to the other depending on who's expertise is called upon.
If Haruhi's main strength was military tactics, or if Jinnai's main strength was athleticism or running school clubs, I'd agree with you - their romance would feel suffocating to each other and both would hate how they didn't hold anything over the other one. But since both are willing to admit the particular areas where the other one is better than him or her...
So, a big key for me in any sequels, I feel, is providing situations where Jinnai's skill set (military tactics - or something that can borrow off of that) has opportunities to be used. Or, perhaps, Jinnai gives a lot of speeches, where he arguably has Haruhi edged out (not that she's bad at speeches... but I like to view Jinnai as an excellent orator).
In both cases, it's hard for me to imagine them in a romantic pairing in which they are not "wearing the pants", as it were. I feel that for a romance to bloom with one of these characters as a member, the other member would need to be the sort who quietly supports them, not someone who calls the shots. Haruhi or Jinnai would certainly acquiesce to the wishes of their partner from time to time, but because they choose to please their partner, not because they believe their partner has an equal place in the decision-making process.
Here, again, I think that both are willing to admit where the other is superior to him or her... largely because they don't really care about that area (but to humor the other, they won't say that).
Haruhi probably couldn't care less how good she is at military tactics or planning military operations... but Jinnai cares, so she'll humor him there.
Jinnai probably couldn't care less how good he is at running clubs based on anime tropes like 'moe mascot'... but Haruhi cares, so he'll humor her there.
See what I'm saying?
I will say that Haruhi, simply because of the Bugrom Empire chain of command, has the overall edge on Jinnai. But, I actually feel that this is fitting, for a reason I'll get to later on...
It is my feeling that, if Haruhi and Jinnai were placed into a situation like the one you constructed for this story, each of them would chafe more and more as each attempted to assert their own will. Eventually, one or the other (or both) would blow up, and they'd go their seperate ways.
Well, the two were (as far as they could tell) in complete agreement up until Haruhi endured the big reveal. Aside from enduring the SOS Man costume, Jinnai really wasn't knowingly at odds with Haruhi on anything. And, because of what Diva said to Haruhi about the proper relationship between Bugrom Queen and Supreme Commander, Haruhi let Jinnai pretty much run the show as it pertained to "converting" Gannan over to the SOS Brigade.
The "Haruhi determines the ends/Jinnai determines the means" set up provided by Diva is going to come in handy as a means of compromise between the two of them; it'll be reinforced by Groucho and the other bugrom as well.
<Haruhi... you really should let the boss call the shots here; this is HIS role as Supreme Commander after all.>
<Boss... it's the role of the Bugrom Queen to chart the broader vision for the Empire; you know that!>
It seems that you felt the same way, at least to a degree, as you built up their relationship on a series of misunderstandings.
Yes. The facade of agreement had to be there to avoid chaffing until they had fallen in love with each other.
THEN once they learn the truth about each other, they have a natural inner desire to make their romance and friendship work anyway.
However, I just don't feel that the love should have developed as far as it did without Jinnai and Haruhi "testing the waters", so to speak, for dominance - and as soon as both members realized that a vy for power was on the table, things should have gotten ugly.
I guess that this is the crux of our disagreement on the pairing. I don't think that Jinnai and Haruhi take their desire for dominance THAT far... where they would "test the waters" for dominance when they both had every reason to believe that the other one was in almost complete agreement with him or her anyway.
At some level, I think that they would shrug their shoulders and think...
Jinnai: This is perfect! I have found an equal worthy of my respect... but I need not ensure my dominance over this equal since she agrees with me all the time anyway... except on this SOS Man business which is fairly inconsequential to my broader plans. What a perfect ally I have in Haruhi Suzumiya! Indeed, she may be the perfect girlfriend for me as well - a girlfriend far greater than any girl that the accursed Makoto could manage to attract!
Haruhi: This totally rocks! I have found a really extraordinary guy that is beloved by an entire alien empire, an intellectual equal, and worthy of my respect! He is perhaps even my equal... Normally, I'd feel challenged by that, but we think alike so much that I'm effectively calling the shots anyway! I get to have my cake and eat it too! What a great friend and new SOS Brigade member I have here! In fact, he might make a nice boyfriend...
Basically, one or both characters needed to change some fundamental aspects of their characters in order for the romance to work. In this case, I felt it was Jinnai that got "nerfed", as it were.
Jinnai's character didn't change so much as he was simply dealt a difficult hand, and had to choose what to do with it - stay imprisoned for life, or 'give in' to the woman that he had come to love and hence at least get to have some small measure of glory by successfully running the mission to save her.
Don't think that Jinnai has been emasculated here - he hasn't. I intend to write the Haruhi/Jinnai relationship (in the sequel) as a continuing give-and-take where the role of "pants wearer" shifts back and forth given circumstances and area of expertise. Over time, I intend for the relationship to take an edge off of both characters, as they learn that they can be happy in an equal partnership.
By the end of the story, it was pretty clear that Haruhi was the one that was going to get her way. He wants to kill Makoto, she doesn't want that, Makoto lives. He wants world conquest, she wants to form a club, they form a club. While Haruhi was willing to make some concessions for Jinnai's benefit, she's definitely the one calling she shots. I just can't put myself in a mindset that's able to accept this as a valid development of Jinnai's character, any more than I would have been able to accept a Haruhi that was content to sit back and let Jinnai continue his rampage.
Aside from what I wrote about how circumstances simply forced Jinnai to make a hard choice - at some level, I think it makes more sense for Jinnai to bend a bit more than Haruhi.
The reason being is that, at a superficial level, Haruhi's "the better catch", if you will, than he is.
Jinnai's appearance is not ugly, certainly, but he's not presented as someone that women flock to.
OTOH, Haruhi is presented as someone that even the likes of Tamiguchi (Sp? - Kyon's friend) considers athletic, cute, and intelligent - a great girlfriend on simply these superficial measures.
Jinnai is still a man and is not oblivious to Haruhi's beauty and positive qualities as a girlfriend - whereas for Haruhi, the attraction to Jinnai I think will have to be rooted in her appreciation for his intelligence, his style, his personal flare moreso than superficial factors, since Jinnai is not presented as magnetically handsome or as athletic. His attention to personal grooming is probably pleasing to Haruhi, but that's his main appeal on a superficial level.
I just have to think that even Jinnai is going to see a great cute girlfriend as a great cute girlfriend - someone to be cherished, at some level. It also helps that Jinnai can hold Haruhi over Makoto's head as a reason for his superiority over Makoto (which I intend to show in a scene or two in the sequel).
Really, for me, Jinnai's the big winner in my fanfic - he gets a great girlfriend out of the deal, and a revived Bugrom Empire, and new friends (Mikuru - and later on, other SOS Brigade members possibly).
Kyon/Haruhi works because it's easy to imagine Kyon pretty much letting Haruhi have her way, stepping in only when he feels she's gone too far, and her listening to him only because she cares for him and doesn't want to upset him. That's more or less exactly the relationship they have already, to be honest, just without any open declartions of love. XD He's clearly the passive member of their relationship and she the dominant.
Personally, I don't think that Haruhi/Kyon works. I'm not a fan of the pairing.
Also, speaking seriously here, and from my time studying human psychology in College... a thoroughly dominant/submissive relationship is not a healthy one. This is one of my main problems with the Haruhi/Kyon relationship - that, along with how I don't get any romance vibe whatsoever coming off of Haruhi and towards Kyon. Frankly, I really do think that Haruhi sees Kyon precisely the same way that Jinnai sees Groucho - a nice submissive subordinate/friend (almost a pet) to have around. That's really not a good basis for a life-long romantic partnership, in my mind. It's just as bad when the guy is always submissive as it is when the gal is always submissive, in my mind. Both can lead to abusive relationships.
Jinnai's personality is dominant enough that it'll force Haruhi to learn valuable social skills like compromising, power sharing, and so on. It'll make her a better person. Haruhi, of course, is already having this beneficial effect on Jinnai.
Haruhi and Jinnai both need each other to learn how to be more well-rounded human beings, really.
Keep in mind that Haruhi and Jinnai are not even adults yet - it's still quite believable for them to change and mature as they grow into adults, just like teenagers typically do.
Well... to be fair, I'm throwing around words like "never" awfully freely. My difficulties with the pairing work under the assumption that I know every aspect of the characters involved, which, naturally, can't be true, as there's no way for one person to know another completely. For instance, one of the steps you took to make Jinnai a valid partner for Haruhi was to assert that he'd taken the path of a villain because he felt that taking the role of a villian was the only way he'd be able to properly defeat Makoto. I tend to feel that Jinnai chose that path because it was a convenient one that had been offered to him, and that defeating Makoto was simply one of many goals he had in his desire to acquire power. Both views of his character are valid ones, given what we've seen of him from the anime.
Well, Jinnai became villainous the moment he tried to strangle Makoto with rope before they even went to El Hazard. I will say that Jinnai wants personal glory over and above any obsession with Makoto - it's just that Makoto means that he tries to achieve that obsession through a road of villainy instead of through a road of heroism.
Although, Haruhi is changing that.
To sum up, I don't feel that Haruhi or Jinnai would ever be satisfied in a relationship with an equal partner; they would each continually attempt to assert dominance, and that would spoil any attempt to actually remain together.
Or, conversely, this would lead to both growing as characters and human beings (well, as a human-esque bugrom, in Haruhi's case).
Rowan said something way back in one of his earlier chapter reviews that resonated with me - he wondered if Haruhi and Jinnai would have a positive, or negative, effect on each other... as both do have their good sides. And I think that they're bringing out positive effects in each other.
One thing I should point out - it's possible that even the writer of the Haruhi novels is thinking how I'm thinking, as Season 2 Haruhi already seems to have an edge taken off of her vis a vis Season 1 Haruhi. She actively welcomes input from other Brigade members on what they'd like to do, and takes them up on it.
Don't take this to mean, by the way, that I believe that all couples require a dominant and submissive pairing. I just feel that these particular characters have a drive to remain on top that would prevent that kind of equality in a relationship.
I would argue that any healthy, successful romantic relationship would have to have some degree of equality within it. So, quite the contrary - a romance involving Jinnai and/or Haruhi should have some equality within it just as any romance should.
Also, I think that Jinnai, at least, strives for personal glory moreso than to constantly be on top, per se. So if Haruhi's methods give Jinnai the personal glory that he desires...
Anyway, the reason that I can be so dead-set against the pairing and still provide positive feed back on many of their interactions basically has to do with suspension of disbelief. I was not convinced that the progression you showed us actually would have lead to a romantic pairing, but I was still able to evaluate subsequent scenes AS THOUGH they had been enough. Essentially, I approached scenes like this: "If we were to assume that Jinnai was in love with Haruhi for some reason, is this how he'd come to her rescue?" or "If we were to assume that Jinnai was in love with Haruhi for some reason, is this how he'd react to the S.O.S. Man costume?"
Essentially, I was able to give positive comments about their characterization during their romance by ignoring the fact that I was totally unconvinced that the romance could ever form. Basically, they're in love, deal with it, now is this how they would behave if they were in love?
I see what you're saying here.
I will admit that of all the possible paths you could have taken to establish their loving relationship, the one you took is the closest I can think of to something that has a remote chance of working. In the beginning, they were able to get close to one another because each had a thorough enough misunderstanding of the other that each believed that they were the ones in charge - or at the very least, that the other was no threat to their authority. This allowed them to become close in ways that no straight-up rivalry would have allowed.
To end things off, I'd like to mention that I was a bit bemused at one of the things you mentioned about your reasons for attempting this story: That Jinnai was pretty much a male equivalent to Haruhi. While I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment, I disagree with the sentiment that this would make them a natural pairing. Characters - or even real people - that are too much alike rarely make for good couples. It's better if a couple has a variety of traits between them - they should have personalities that complement one another, not exactly match.
Again... and with all due respect... my studies in human psychology have told me differently. Oh, it's good to have complimentary skill sets - like how Jinnai's skill set is different from Haruhi's... but when it comes to personality types, "birds of a feather flock together" wins out over "opposites attract".
Every psychology professor that I have had has stressed this when discussing human relationships, and human romances - straight people tend to be attracted to those of the opposite gender who are like an opposite gender version of themselves.
At some level, I think that Kyon's submissiveness is a turn-off to Haruhi - I think that she perceives it as weakness; convenient weakness for her, but weakness nonetheless. Actually, what would make me buy into Haruhi/Kyon is if Kyon would effectively stand up to her at some point (perhaps in stopping Haruhi's abuse of Mikuru once and for all, for example), hence earning Haruhi's respect.
I really think that Haruhi would want HER boyfriend to be someone strong, passionate, with bold initiative like she has - someone that she could respect. And I think that Jinnai would need to see this in HIS girlfriend, as well. For Haruhi and Jinnai, I think that they would see their romantic partner as an extension of themselves, and a reflection on themselves.
I don't see Haruhi or Jinnai wanting a romantic partner that they couldn't respect... and, as such, I think that seeing such a romantic partner as an equal is partly what would make such a romantic partner alluring to either of them.
Very nice, riveting discussion with you, Spanner, even if we do disagree. :)
I'm going to share my nuclear solution idea with you via PMs to see what you think of it. If it would make the Haruhi/Jinnai romance more acceptable to you, then it would be worth it, I think.
I'm actually not a big fan of gender-bended Haruhi myself, for many of the same reasons as you aren't. I just found the concept of a male Haruhi interesting; mostly for comparison purposes with actual anime characters.
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A couple things I wanted to add after thinking about it a bit more.
1) I want to be clear that I don't dislike Kyon. His cynicism, for me, goes back and forth between humorous and annoying (annoying when it feels too cynical to me), but it's more often humorous than annoying. And, for the most part, I definitely think that he's a good decent guy.
Actually, the second major relationship dynamic I was going for in this fanfic (after Haruhi/Jinnai) was Kyon/Makoto (this one plutonic; I don't see either of these two as gay) - I see Kyon and Makoto as flip sides of the same coin; I think that both share very similar moral values and personal drives, but that Kyon is the eternal pessimist to Makoto's eternal optimist.
I also like Kyon/Nanoha in my own fanfic as well - because I've molded Nanoha into being what, in my mind, is the ideal girlfriend for Kyon - someone who wants to be upbeat, but who is a bit soft emotionally and could use words of encouragement from time to time. Someone stronger than the overly weak Mikuru Asahina, but someone a bit weaker than the very strong Nanoha Takamachi
Kyon's natural caring instinct provides words of encouragement... which uplifts Nanoha Inverse... which then makes Nanoha upbeat to the point that even Kyon is uplifted by it himself... or humorously embarrassed (depending on if I want to play the scene for cute comedy or touching romance ;) ).
Kyon's natural caring instinct is almost wasted on Haruhi, who so rarely needs softer words of encouragement. Haruhi, I think, just needs someone to revel in over-the-top bold zealous determination and optimism with.
2) I think that your argument, Spanner, applies to Haruhi and Jinnai as far as close plutonic friendships are concerned. In other words, I don't think that either Haruhi or Jinnai could be a close plutonic friend with someone that either considered an equal. I think that both like to boss plutonic friends around.
But a romance takes it to a different level for both of them, in my mind - I think that with an outright romance, both would be looking for someone "worthy"; someone deserving of the great honor of being Haruhi's boyfriend or Jinnai's girlfriend. Someone at least close to an equal, if not a complete equal.
Someone they could point to and say "Behold my awesome girlfriend/boyfriend!".
Actually, one argument I could make for why Haruhi and Jinnai only waited a few days to make romantic feelings known to one another is because both felt that the other was ill-suited for plutonic friendship (too equal for that ) ... but was perfectly suited for a romantic partner.