El-Hazard Online
General => El-Hazard Online => Topic started by: dooky on January 16, 2003, 08:18:05 am
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I think I've done this on every board I've been on, so this will be no exception. Here it is, dooky's Alternative World Episode 13 Rant, or "Why That Episode Was More OOC Than Most Tenchi Fanfics".
First off, let me just say that this episode had some redeeming features: Fujisawa, in a bizarre exception to the general rule of this episode, is actually more in character than he's been throughout the whole series. Jinnai's scene was amusing enough, and let's not forget Alielle and Fatora's bikinis, which justify the episodes existence by themselves ^_^ The problem is that almost everyone is out of character. So here they are, in ascending order of OOCness.
Makoto: He gets a nosebleed. Because, like, he's never seen naked women before. Oh, apart from OAV1 Episode 3, when he's surrounded by naked women for a long time, and doesn't get a nosebleed. And let's not forget that incident with Alielle in OAV1 Epiosode 2. Suddenly he's a bigger wuss than ever before (although yes, on refelection, this particular flaw could be applied to the whole Alternative World series).
Qawoor: There is a difference between 'naive' and 'brain dead', you know. Throughout Alternative World, Qawoor might not have been the sharpest tool in the box but at least she had some brains. Now she's something akin to Shin Tenchi Mihoshi. The idea that Fatora could trick her by pretending to be a FICTICIOUS priestess defies belief. And another thing... doesn't Qawoor usually attack whenever she panics? Why couldn't she have dealt with Fatora herself?
Alielle and Fatora: It's strange... my favourite couple actually got some GOOD development in this series. Alielle became increasingly mature and sensible, and Fatora was shown to be more affectionate to her. Then this happens...
Fatora's first plot (the one with the Sansukes) doesn't even make sense. What form of gratification are they supposed to get from it? Are supposed to be able to actually FEEL the girls through those giant furry suits? Unless they had a video camera rigged up somewhere, I can't understand what the point of this one was.
The second plot was more Fatora's style... apart from the end. Fatora usually backs off when her cover's blown (particularly when there's a powerful priestess involved). You could argue that this was the closest Fatora's ever got, and her actions can't really be predicted, but I'm not the only person to think that this was going way too far, even for Fatora.
Shayla, Afura and Nanami: This one annoys me. Firstly, they all seem mildly disturbed by the antics of the Sansukes, and they TELL them to stop, but they don't actually DO anything. Nani? We know how quick to anger Shayla and Nanami are. Shayla would have knocked the Sansukes into next week. Are feeble complaints really the best they can do?
Secondly, their reaction on finding out that the Sansukes are really Alielle and Fatora is even more confusing. Yes, they freak out... but think about it. In what way is being felt up by a woman worse than being felt up by a large furry animal? I'd have been mildly relieved.
Parnasse: Doesn't have a single in-character moment throughout the whole episode. Has he been neutered or something? In the rest of the series, he was hitting on Fatora, Rune AND all those harem girls. Now he's swimming past naked women without batting an eyelid. And why was he allowed in the women's section anyway? I know they said he's a kid, but I wouldn't take any chances when it comes to Alielle's family members... would you?
Let's not forget a major chronological arse-up: Makoto and co have obviously been back from Cretaria for some time (since Fujisawa and Miz are back frrom their honeymoon) but Jinnai and Groucho are acting like they've only just got back.
Oh well, that's my rant. If you're good, maybe I'll let you in on my theory of how the El-Hazard cast are moonlighting as the cast of I Me My Strawberry Egg...
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Makoto: He gets a nosebleed. Because, like, he's never seen naked women before. Oh, apart from OAV1 Episode 3, when he's surrounded by naked women for a long time, and doesn't get a nosebleed.
Well, actually, here's an alternate assesment; OAV1 in particular cast Makoto as this incredibly sexuality-unsure character. Everything related to either gender situation made him just get into panic states. The "don't you have any balls, kid?" and the dress-up "No way! am NOT going to dress up in girl's clothing and pretend I'm a woman!"
We can assume that by the end of OAV1 he's figured himself out pretty well. But since he hadn't any real sight of naked women since this transition, perhaps this marks the first time when he thought "Y'know, this doesn't look too bad at all!"
Qawoor: There is a difference between 'naive' and 'brain dead', you know. Throughout Alternative World, Qawoor might not have been the sharpest tool in the box but at least she had some brains.
Actually, I thought she was a complete airhead. Seems like anything could direct her in any direction at any given time.
The idea that Fatora could trick her by pretending to be a FICTICIOUS priestess defies belief.
This is really odd, but really, her entire character seems to indicate to me that she doesn't really pay much attention to what's going on, and very little effects her except in the immediate. For example, she screams, causes that power thing, and there's the explosion. But then she arrives in Floristica and is just walking around thinking about how hungry she is. It's as if she has absolutely no forethought sometimes.
And another thing... doesn't Qawoor usually attack whenever she panics? Why couldn't she have dealt with Fatora herself?
Well, the actual moment was incredibly short-lived, perhaps it wasn't enough for her to get ready, or maybe she didn't even realize the danger. (After all, she nonchalantly asks for Makoto to join her and Nanami in the bath. That indicates to me she has practically no idea about sexuality at all.)
Alielle and Fatora: ... Fatora's first plot (the one with the Sansukes) doesn't even make sense. What form of gratification are they supposed to get from it? Are supposed to be able to actually FEEL the girls through those giant furry suits? Unless they had a video camera rigged up somewhere, I can't understand what the point of this one was.
I guess the question is, how much gratification to you see to people have orgasmic results by your manipulation? ;p
I'm not the only person to think that this was going way too far, even for Fatora.
So her little act in OAV2 where she directly grabs Nanami and is trying to force her there and immediately into sex wasn't? ;p
Shayla, Afura and Nanami: This one annoys me. Firstly, they all seem mildly disturbed by the antics of the Sansukes, and they TELL them to stop, but they don't actually DO anything. Nani? We know how quick to anger Shayla and Nanami are. Shayla would have knocked the Sansukes into next week. Are feeble complaints really the best they can do?
This is true, normally. But then I guess they equally have never been washed by Sansukes, or maybe they actually are enjoying it... I know Afura is, look at her final position before its all interrupted. ;p
Secondly, their reaction on finding out that the Sansukes are really Alielle and Fatora is even more confusing. Yes, they freak out... but think about it. In what way is being felt up by a woman worse than being felt up by a large furry animal? I'd have been mildly relieved.
Large furry animals perhaps have no idea what they're doing. Large female humans usually do.
Parnasse: Doesn't have a single in-character moment throughout the whole episode. Has he been neutered or something? In the rest of the series, he was hitting on Fatora, Rune AND all those harem girls. Now he's swimming past naked women without batting an eyelid.
I guess it could be he realized just how disgusting and trouble-causing random sexuality drives happen to be. (After all, Fatora kind of indicated this perfectly.) It could be a development thing.
And why was he allowed in the women's section anyway? I know they said he's a kid...
I think that answers your own question. He's a kid, they have little expectance from him. Never mind he's a relative.
Let's not forget a major chronological arse-up: Makoto and co have obviously been back from Cretaria for some time (since Fujisawa and Miz are back frrom their honeymoon) but Jinnai and Groucho are acting like they've only just got back.
However, nothing in that scene indicates that the moment was happening right along with the whole Arliman thing. That could very well be a "Well, when Jinnai got back, THIS happened" display. Or you never know, maybe Jinnai's been bitching about it for several days now.
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Unfortunately, I have yet to see past Episode 4 of Alternate World, so therefore can't really comment on the primary rant. However, Rob posted some stuff that I couldn't resist tampering with:
Well, actually, here's an alternate assesment; OAV1 in particular cast Makoto as this incredibly sexuality-unsure character. Everything related to either gender situation made him just get into panic states. The "don't you have any balls, kid?" and the dress-up "No way! am NOT going to dress up in girl's clothing and pretend I'm a woman!"
;) Thanks for the credit on that musing btw, Rob. *shot*
Anyway, yeah, at the beginning of OAV1, Makoto is a very confused young man. Like a lot of teenagers, really. Being made to dress up as a Princess does little to build his masculine side (I'm suprised he fell for Ifurita at all with all the cross dressing he had to do ;D).
It would definately be something I'd consider going into more detail about if I decide to novelise anymore of the first OAV.
On that note, I have been thinking about doing the Shayla introduction and battle scene for an encore. What does everyone else think?
Or you never know, maybe Jinnai's been bitching about it for several days now.
Yeah, like the whole Makoto rival thing, which he would have been dragging on for a few YEARS at this point. ;) He's a very sad man, is our Jinnai, but we love him anyway.
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Thanks for the credit on that musing btw, Rob
At least be glad that you managed to penetrate my thick skull. ;p
On that note, I have been thinking about doing the Shayla introduction and battle scene for an encore
You mean episode 2's little deal?
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However, nothing in that scene indicates that the moment was happening right along with the whole Arliman thing. That could very well be a "Well, when Jinnai got back, THIS happened" display. Or you never know, maybe Jinnai's been bitching about it for several days now.
I bet Jinnai has been bitching about it for several days... The way he mulls over Makoto one-upping him all the time, he acts like things that happened 2 years ago happened today...
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However, nothing in that scene indicates that the moment was happening right along with the whole Arliman thing. That could very well be a "Well, when Jinnai got back, THIS happened" display. Or you never know, maybe Jinnai's been bitching about it for several days now.
On that topic, I'd like to point out that when Jinnai was sent to the Alternative World, he was in Makoto's House or room, whatever. And supposedly, they all came back to the very exact place they were when they got transported. So obviously, some time has passed. I agree with Kathy's point ,
I bet Jinnai has been bitching about it for several days... The way he mulls over Makoto one-upping him all the time, he acts like things that happened 2 years ago happened today...
since yes, Jinnai does have a tendancy to do that.
I was also annoyed with Qawool. Yes, she's butt naked, and yes, she's too stupid to know better (geez, don't they teach you things like this in Priestess school?) But if she doesn't know enough to know that you don't bathe with boys and you let boys hug you and stuff when your naked, how come she screamed when Fatora tried to molest her???
AND WHAT ABOUT JINNAI AND DIVA!!!??? That last episode, when Diva has her way with him, well, I think that could have been left out completly. After all, in the first OAV, after Ifurita's conquering everything, and Diva's getting Jinnai drunk, (and you KNOW that it's not because they ran out of apple juice), you can pretty much assume what's going on. But NOW Jinnai's playing at the "Oh my God I never realized Diva wanted that!" ploy. Is this strange, or have I just not been gatting some importaint info? (Perhaps in the OAV 2 which I never saw???)
*End of Rant*
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That last episode, when Diva has her way with him, well, I think that could have been left out completly.
Leaving the first episode moment completely unattached to the rest of the story?
After all, in the first OAV, after Ifurita's conquering everything, and Diva's getting Jinnai drunk, (and you KNOW that it's not because they ran out of apple juice), you can pretty much assume what's going on.
Actually, no, you can't. She's impressed with his leadership, but by no means am I convinced anything else is going on at that point in time.
And I'm not the only one, to quote a few text bits from the infamous Jinnai / Shayla story (after Jinnai is lost in a cave-in):
"I don't want your excuses, insect!" Diva shouted, reaching for the vase's twin. "I want my military genius
back!" The Bugrom drone mumbled something again and bowed his head. "You'd better find him," Diva
snapped. "I'm not going to watch the Bugrom empire fall because of your stupidity!"
What appears more important at the time? The Bugrom Empire's "Military Genius".
Now for the author's insight on Jinnai:
He'd never been interested in women. He was too busy for women. They only got in the way, with their emotional attachments and long talks and claims of love and such. Love was ridiculous and pointless. Power, that's what was worthwhile. Power, glory, and the pursuit of victory.
I will have to agree, that's probably the most accurate depiction of Jinnai's mind, at least until said event occurs. If anything makes him happy, it's knowing he's in a position of power, and is getting what he wants.
But NOW Jinnai's playing at the "Oh my God I never realized Diva wanted that!" ploy. Is this strange, or have I just not been gatting some importaint info? (Perhaps in the OAV 2 which I never saw)
No, in OAV 2, Diva was only featured once for a few moments in the first episode (poor Diva never gets screen time). Obviously when Jinnai popped the question of producing eggs he had absolutely no idea how that worked (or at least assumed it meant mating with one of the big bugs.) Also, it's probably not so much that Diva wanted it (whether or not she did may not be relevant actually); if you read the El-Hazard RPG&R book by Guardians of Order, the author has a very insectoid-research approach to the Bugrom behavior. Most likely Diva demanded this because it was in the interest of the hive overall, not so much personal enjoyment.
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No, in OAV 2, Diva was only featured once for a few moments in the first episode (poor Diva never gets screen time).
Even so, at least she dresses better than her closest rival in the ruler-with-very-little-screentime category, Rune Venus.
Also, it's probably not so much that Diva wanted it (whether or not she did may not be relevant actually); if you read the El-Hazard RPG&R book by Guardians of Order, the author has a very insectoid-research approach to the Bugrom behavior. Most likely Diva demanded this because it was in the interest of the hive overall, not so much personal enjoyment.
Probably, though I often suspect that her feelings for Jinnai go deeper than religious faith and respect and at least border on love. Diva is also probably the only Bugrom with a sense of unique individuality and personality in the OAV series, though Groucho seems to be gaining one as well thanks to Jinnai's influence.
As for Bugrom reproduction, I believe that, in light of the extraordinary versatility of the Bugrom, that the genetic codes for every Bugrom variation are stored within the queen and that the only thing needed to begin the egg-laying process is the proper *ahem* stimulus. Either that or Bugrom larva are neutral and develop into the different variations based on how much food they eat before entering the pupal stage.
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Probably, though I often suspect that her feelings for Jinnai go deeper than religious faith and respect and at least border on love.
There's a possibility, but I would never think so of Jinnai.
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Leaving the first episode moment completely unattached to the rest of the story?
Well, I guess you're right. And it would make no sense to leave it hanging like that. (Personally, I'd like to see some of the new Bugrom that Jinnai is *responsible for* Maybe he will treat these particular Bugrom better if he is, in some way, related to them?)
And I'm not the only one, to quote a few text bits from the infamous Jinnai / Shayla story (after Jinnai is lost in a cave-in):
(Actually, I just got finished reading that story, and it was really good. Thank you Rob)
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That's great dooky, but you left out one very important thing. With all that nudity was a complete and utter lack of nipples!!!
All that aside, episode 13 is basically just fan service. Really, really great fan service. Bless you AIC, god bless you.
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With all that nudity was a complete and utter lack of nipples!!!
No male will probably ever get away without pointing that out... original OAV had 'em, don't know why this didn't... unless it's just related to all the Wanderers-ification of the animation. (easier to go without?) It could also be something related to the fact they didn't want it to spontaneously turn in to total hentai, so they lowered their pelor=sion count slightly by dilluting the image... dunno.
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No male will probably ever get away without pointing that out... original OAV had 'em, don't know why this didn't... unless it's just related to all the Wanderers-ification of the animation. (easier to go without?) It could also be something related to the fact they didn't want it to spontaneously turn in to total hentai, so they lowered their pelor=sion count slightly by dilluting the image... dunno.
One would be apt to site that this is a TV series. So it would have more restrictions. Although I don't believe that this episode actually aired in Japanese TV? And I have seen nipples in TV anime before, so...... Hmmmm.
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I know, that really bugged me too, I mean, if they don't have nipples, are they really naked??? *one of Rachie's greatest mysteries of life*
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Agreeing. Hey? I am even supposed to be here? You're talking about naked people. I'm supposed to learn all that in school later on this year. Won't that just be soooo exciting? You can see the excitement just throwing itself at your face can't you? No? Didn't think so.
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Lar, it'll be one of the most interesting topics of your life that you'll never learn enough about until someone tells you or you figure it out yourself. And even the things people tell you might not be substantial enough on their own.
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Makoto: He gets a nosebleed.
Let me add to this. Nosebleeds in Anime usually signify that the character is thinking mischaevous thoughts. In effect, the brain sends a message to the heart to pump faster, and ultimately blood rushes to the head... in males, which head? :-[ Hoooo boy, that was difficult to explain while trying to keep a PG rating.
Gaaah, Got a Clip o that scene, Jinnai? ;D
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I can make one in a few seconds, just tell me what "scene" you want; the whole thing, or just the nose?
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it would be nice if we had the whole scene in slow-mo, gif format... ;D
but if that's too much to ask, you could just have the naked Qawoor pic, and the nosebleeding can be seen as a reflection on the monitor...
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Uhm... :P
Nosebleed and Qawool are two different scenes...
But here's a couple [crappy] MPEG2 files
(Warning: This is the most extreme for El-Hazard fan service)
Shayla, Nanami, and Afura (http://www.el-hazardonline.net/stuff/scene.zip) (7.3MB)
Qawool (http://www.el-hazardonline.net/stuff/sceneq.zip) (slightly chopped up, 9.9MB)
If you want a GIF from this stuff, you'd have to be specific (and reasonable ;p)
Something I only recently noted. It seems Nanami, Shayla, and Afura are all simulataneously molested... BUT only Fatora and Alielle are out to do this stuff. More proof that this episode and all its goodies exist merely as someone who wanted to do on-the-edge-of-hentai fan service really bad without making it an actual plot event.
Ironically I probably would recant most of my defense for this episode. :P But all I can say is... you either like it or you don't, don't try to think about it too hard.
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Uh, :-[
*thinks of an excuse of not knowing el-hazard scene cronology properly*
Ummmm.....
*bangs head for a memory so vague, to a time when anime shown over cable was still in english...*
Uhhhh....
*Realizes no excuse would do but say...*
Gomen! Spare me for having only home copies of OAV1 & 2!
Oh yeah, Thanks, Jinnai! You the Man!
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but if that's too much to ask, you could just have the naked Qawoor pic, and the nosebleeding can be seen as a reflection on the monitor...
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!! Good one!
BTW Bakasama, that's a great Miyuki animated gif!
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If your gonna talk dirty you can rate it 12 or 15. don't worry. You might scare El though. She's about to do 'reproduction' in science.
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If your gonna talk dirty you can rate it 12 or 15. don't worry. You might scare El though. She's about to do 'reproduction' in science.
At my work (a Library) the other day I happened accross a large-ish coffee table type book called "From Conception to Birth." Of course, the chapter on "Conception" was only a single page blurry photo of something that vaguely resembled a bed. But I think we all know where babies come from anyway, so......... ^^;
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My AW ep 13 complaint list is still pretty much the same as the last time I replied to this topic, on another forum-- low production values, Afura's IQ dropping about 100 points, and Fatora and Alielle more-or-less raping Kauru. Ick. It's my least favorite EH anime.
So her little act in OAV2 where she directly grabs Nanami and is trying to force her there and immediately into sex wasn't? ;p
Well, in one case, you have a fully-clothed Fatora feeling up a fully-clothed Nanami, and Nanami is aware enough of what's going on to push Fatora away. In the other case, you have a half-naked Fatora and Alielle, kneeling over a naked and wet Kauru (ugh, I'm getting too old for things like this), and Kauru is scared enough to scream.
Another thing that ick'ed me is-- why was I put off when Fatora and Alielle overpower Kauru, and Kauru screams, but it didn't automatically bother me when Deva has the bugs overpower Jinnai, and Jinnai screams? I mean, non-consentual is non-consentual. I shouldn't be entertained by either case.
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I really don't know what to think of it. I used to defend AW and all content as much as I'd defend the original OAV. Then I took the stick out of my backside and acknowledged it's probably one of the worst jobs done for El-Hazard. It really shows none of the original creative effort put into any of the other versions I've ever seen in my lifetime, and that includes all of the spinoffs: OAV2, Wanderers, the Manga, and the Sega Saturn.
Every one of these had something about them that felt like El-Hazard.
Alternative World was like mid-grade fanfiction... it was written by someone who almost cares about El-Hazard, but has just enough of things they they personally want to see (customized Makoto relationship, molestation, etc) that they break continuity and established ground just to insert themselves.
Granted I could possibly be held responsible for things that I do, but I mean, if you're going to try your own ideas, they have to be logically connected, not randomly inserted. The fact that AW13 wasn't even done well (how can you molest 3 girls when there's only 2 molesters?) just shows what the real goal was.
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Another thing that ick'ed me is-- why was I put off when Fatora and Alielle overpower Kauru, and Kauru screams, but it didn't automatically bother me when Deva has the bugs overpower Jinnai, and Jinnai screams? I mean, non-consentual is non-consentual. I shouldn't be entertained by either case.
This one's easy to explain I'm afraid. Jinnai is not an innocent. Jinnai is a villain, and he was getting his come-uppance. Furthermore, it wasn't exactly out of character (like Alielle's actions) and it wasn't drawn out as long. There was also a matter-of-factness to it. Diva needed a viable mate, Jinnai was there, that was all there was too it. She didn't seem to be getting any perverse pleasure from it like Fatara and Alielle.
But come on, it was the only direct to video episode of a series that should have entirely been direct to video. What more needs to be said?
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Furthermore, it wasn't exactly out of character (like Alielle's actions) and it wasn't drawn out as long. There was also a matter-of-factness to it. Diva needed a viable mate, Jinnai was there, that was all there was too it. She didn't seem to be getting any perverse pleasure from it like Fatara and Alielle.
Right. Guardians of Order's RPG guidebook for El-Hazard also makes a great, well-written point about general insectoid hive mentality. So it can be fairly easy to agree at least with Diva's goal that, as queen, what must be done to advance and protect the hive is thusly done.
And Neil always said that Jinnai would probably found he enjoyed it later ;) though I suppose its debatable...
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For obvious reasons, I'm suddenly reminded of the story from the El Hazard Comic Anthology where Jinnai is gonna hook up with the harem of Bugrom chicks, only to find out they're half insectoid. ^^;
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That's the best bit of insight I've ever heard on that story. :P
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If the purpose of that story was simply to freak you out, then it certainly worked for me. ^^;
Largely off-topic, Rob I'm kinda curious as to why you end almost every single one of your posts with :P? Then again, I end almost every single one of my posts with ^^; so.........
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I usually use it as a mark of cynicism. If you ever make me utter "LOL", you've done something unbelievable.
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I usually use it as a mark of cynicism. If you ever make me utter "LOL", you've done something unbelievable.
You're a tough man to please, Rob. ^^;
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No, actually, I'm generally "pleased", it's just a trick to make me overjoyed. ;)
Ironic by my carrier name.
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Standard points are it doesn't take much to make me laugh. Me fally out of a black hole was enough to make me die completely with laughter. So getting me to not laugh is probably the biggest challenge.
Lar