El-Hazard Online
General => El-Hazard Online => Topic started by: Aya Mikage on August 11, 2003, 08:49:51 am
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Hehehe....
WHAT ABOUT THIS PEOPLE, HA?
Makoto's IFURITA VERSUS Jinnai's KALIA.
Both are amazing demon lords but which of the two is greater in power, might and wit??
This is my opinion:
I realy think even though my favorite el Hazard character is Ifurita, it is a fact that Kalia is greater. Why? Its because Kalia cannot be persuaded in every way. She can kill anything even her master...uhmmm she has no master. One thing, there is only destruction in her head. Once someone or something gets on her way she just.... whalah kaboom.... she just destroys. Kalia can absorb powers ---> yeah,cool!
Kalia displays more strength that even the three great priestess of Maldoon combined can't even hurt her and the most shocking thing about it is that Kalia even unsealed or defeated an Ifurita before, so theres just no way Ifurita can beat her alone. Kalia is way more powerful - she even got a destruction weapon which is way more powerful than the Eye of God.
Yes,yes... I remembered. :o On the el Hazard the Magnificent world 2, Ifurita finally defeated Kalia because Ifurita was with Makoto. Makoto caught Kalia's attention first then Ifurita came with her staff and destroyed Kalia. IT WAS SO UNFAIR FOR KALIA! Why? Because there was the two of them fighting her. I like it to be one on one between Ifurita and Kalia or Ifurita with the Eye of God and Kalia and her Trigger of Destruction!!!
Lets just see the outcome of that one, hah?
GOT SOMTHING TO SAY NOW? POST IT NOW OR SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE....
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Here's my take on the matter: Makoto's Iffy would defeat Kalia without too much effort.
Yuba's Ifurita spent - seemingly - her whole life in the sanctuary. So, although she possesed rudimentary fighting skills, she didn't have all the battle experience that Makoto's Ifurita had. Makoto's Iffy has more tricks up her sleeve than anybody, even Kalia. Kalia is simply a tool of vengence. Now pesonally, I like Kalia. But all she can do is absorb and reflect back techniques. Ifurita masters these techniques and increases their power 100-fold. Plus, she already has command of all of the elemental priestesses' techniques. As well as who knows what else she picked up during the ancient holy wars of El-Hazard. It's only a matter of time before Ifurita breaks her down. To win a battle, you can't rely on a single tactic or technique, even if it is a powerful one.
On top of all that, Kalia was apparently defeated and sealed away once before. And, the Trigger of Destruction was brokn up and hidden. Proving that she can and has been defeated. Yuba's Ifurita also has memories of this. Most likely because she was invloved in some way.
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I agree with Saucer. Makoto's Ifurita would kick Kalia's psychotic butt. Not only is she the most powerful Ifurita ever built, but she is indeed the most powerful Demon God ever built.
Although Kalia can block and reflect the attacks of her opponents, Makoto Iffy is more versatile in her design. She was absolutely untouchable when she fought the three priestesses, while Kalia had trouble fighting them.
There's no question in my mind, Makoto's Iffurita would win.
A more interesting question would be this though: Who would win in a fight, Kalia or Jinnai's Ifurita?
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A more interesting question would be this though: Who would win in a fight, Kalia or Jinnai's Ifurita?
Heh, great question LGJ. It's a tough call, but I'm going to have to say; Jinnai's Ifurita. Why? Here's my reason....
J's Iffy is powerful. She can cause explosions of immense power, comparable to Makoto's Iffy (as can be seen in the episode where she awakens and destroys a huge mountain). And, she can control weather and create huge storms like the enormous tornando ("Can you hold me? You're a church person, right?"). However, she lacks control of that power. Kalia, on the other hand, is perfectly in control of her power. Although her power is basically limited to catching things and lobbing them back. Ifurita can also collect and re-direct power, as seen when she is fighting Shayla. She gathers all the fireballs Shayla throws at her and creates an enormous fireball. So, it's easy to foresee a virtual Volleyball match of powers being thrown back and forth. Except for one thing: Dumb luck always wins out. And in the dumb luck department, J's Iffy wins hands down. She's most likely to create some incredible tornado and blow Kalia up into orbit or something. Or create an immense electrical storm and short-out the Trigger of Destruction. ^^;
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Not to sound disrespectful, LGJ and Saucer, but I find myself agreeing with Ifurita-sama on this one. While it is true that, based solely on what was shown in the two OAV series, Ifurita is the more powerful of the two Demon Gods, I find myself favoring Kalia because of logic and inference. If you will refrain from blasting me into oblivion for having the audacity to contradict two such august individuals as yourselves, I will explain. For the sake of convenience and clarity, Makoto's Ifurita will be referred to as Ifurita1 and Yuba's Ifurita as Ifurita2. TV Ifurita, if she is referred to at all, will still be called TV Ifurita in the rest of this post.
First off, I see a possible flaw in your arguments. To the best of my knowledge, it is never stated that Kalia can't copy attacks like the Ifurita series. Neil's "The Wanderer's Guide to El-Hazard - The Magnificent World" site even includes copying attacks in the section of her bio describing her abilities, and even if this is a mistake it is at the very least semi-logical to assume that she has this "copying" power since she was by all indications built after Ifurita1 when the Demon God technology was presumably a bit more widespread.
Secondly, Kalia seems to more technologically advanced than the Ifurita model. She doesn't appear to need recharge sessions and seems to possess a completely independent and self-renewing power source (perhaps she uses the energy she absorbs from attacks to supplement whatever power runs her?). In addition, there are also indications that Kalia has a partial circulatory system, which, if my limited knowledge of robotics based on the Megaman and Megaman X games is accurate, implies a highly efficient maintenance and energy distribution system.
Thirdly, who's to say that Kalia simply can't absorb and refire whatever attacks Ifurita1 shoots at her (Remember, Eye of God attack advocates, dimensional energy is still energy)? Neither Ifurita1 or Kalia's limits were revealed, but I'm willing to bet on Kalia having a higher power threshold since, as was previously mentioned, she seems to be a more advanced and possibly next generation Demon God.
Next, there is her techtouch ability which I believe to be at least a mite more potent than Makoto's (and by extension Yuba's) techtouch. Kalia was able to seal Ifurita2 without any apparent difficulties, even though Ifurita2 indubitably possessed Yuba's techtouch. Additionally, it took Yuba his life to undo whatever Kalia did, implying that her techtouch or whatever it's called is stronger than his. If Kalia managed to link with Ifurita1, I'd say the odds favor her victory.
Finally, Kalia is a lunatic. She seemed to take a sadistic amount of glee in pulverizing her enemies, and I got the distinct impression that she actually enjoyed getting repeatedly whacked by the blunt end of a keystaff. Insane people can be dangerous, but insane weapons of mass destruction with possible sadist/masochist tendencies can be deadly.
As for Kalia's defeat in the Ancient Wars, there are simply too many unknown factors to use this to conclusively support Ifurita1 over Kalia, in my opinion. After all, Kalia might've had to take on an entire army of Demon Gods and other advanced weaponry at once since if somebody was about to destroy the entire universe I'd certainly send whatever I could to stop it. Or maybe one of her creators had a "What have I done?" moment along with a change of heart and shut both her and the Trigger of Destruction down, which would at least partially explain why she didn't seem to be the least bit damaged when Jinnai found her.
Anyway, it is my belief that Kalia is a more advanced, versatile, and overall powerful Demon God than Ifurita1, and, while it is true that Ifurita1 has more experience and likely more attacks, I believe that Kalia could weather and/or absorb and/or reflect whatever Ifurita1 throws at her until Ifurita1 runs out of power.
As for Kalia versus TV Ifurita, I find myself conflicted about this. On the one hand, Kalia could probably absorb whatever TV Ifurita throws at her, but as Saucer mentioned there’s the dumb luck factor to consider. I also shudder at the thought of what could happen if Kalia tried linking with TV Ifurita’s mind. *shudders* I suppose it might depend on the situation.
Serious situation: Kalia wins.
Situation in which TV Ifurita is absolutely determined and completely focused, with TV Jinnai’s life depending on her winning: TV Ifurita.
*shrugs* The “love” between a “father” and a “daughter” can make anything possible, I guess.
P.S. Rob, I hope you don’t mind, but I used one of the images from this site’s goodies section for my icon. If you have any problems with this, tell me and I’ll change it.
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Rowan A Seven - P.S. Rob, I hope you don't mind, but I used one of the images from this site's goodies section for my icon. If you have any problems with this, tell me and I'll change it.
We have only one qualm - Shrink the image a bit.
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First off, I see a possible flaw in your arguments. To the best of my knowledge, it is never stated that Kalia can't copy attacks like the Ifurita series. Neil's "The Wanderer's Guide to El-Hazard - The Magnificent World" site even includes copying attacks in the section of her bio describing her abilities, and even if this is a mistake it is at the very least semi-logical to assume that she has this "copying" power since she was by all indications built after Ifurita1 when the Demon God technology was presumably a bit more widespread.
That is a good point also. From this then, one could infer that Kalia would not have been involved much in the ancient holy wars. Since, like Ifurita 2, she seems to only possess a default set of attacks. If I recall, she does blow up a wall or two with some attack (haven't watched OVA2 in a couple years or so).
Secondly, Kalia seems to more technologically advanced than the Ifurita model. She doesn't appear to need recharge sessions and seems to possess a completely independent and self-renewing power source (perhaps she uses the energy she absorbs from attacks to supplement whatever power runs her?). In addition, there are also indications that Kalia has a partial circulatory system, which, if my limited knowledge of robotics based on the Megaman and Megaman X games is accurate, implies a highly efficient maintenance and energy distribution system.
Any cyborg type being would need some type of catalyst for their power supply (just as humans need food to manufacture energy). Assuming she does indeed use the energy she absorbs from attacks to supplement her power, that would mean she would need to be under constant attack in order to function. If the amount of energy she expends in battle is greater than the amount of energy she absorbs, she will eventually run down. Though Ifurita needs to be wound up, she appears to expend huge amounts of energy over the period of a battle. Including not only attacks, but flying and other movement. Also including - assuming she has a non-organic brain - what must amount to massive amounts of CPU processing power.
And while one can also assume that Kalia was built after Ifurita and may be possessed of more advanced technology. It's harder to tell if she actually possesses the same or similar technology Ifurita does. Since Kalia was built by the enemies of the ancient tribe(s) who built Ifurita, it's unlikely that they would have access to the same technology. Unless, 1) the technology was "public domain" so to speak, and circulating before the two became enemies, 2) they managed to capture an Ifurita and study her (unlikely, imagine trying to capture Ifurita! ^^; ) or 3) they somehow captured technical documents or some scientist turned trader and revealed their secrets. Otherwise, they would have had to come up with something original. Not knowing the technology of the enemy, they may have come up with something original but not quite as powerful.
Thirdly, who's to say that Kalia simply can't absorb and refire whatever attacks Ifurita1 shoots at her (Remember, Eye of God attack advocates, dimensional energy is still energy)? Neither Ifurita1 or Kalia's limits were revealed, but I'm willing to bet on Kalia having a higher power threshold since, as was previously mentioned, she seems to be a more advanced and possibly next generation Demon God.
That's exactly it, Kalia can absorb and refire whatever attacks are thrown at her. But that's not a very good technique, as it's dependent on what your opponent is throwing at you. No attack, no counter-attack. It's a great defense, but battles are won by successfully utilizing both offensive and defensive tactics. Ifurita has the ability to learn the form and function of an attack and technique, right down to the molecular level. Then utilize the technique to her fullest potential.
Next, there is her techtouch ability which I believe to be at least a mite more potent than Makoto's (and by extension Yuba's) techtouch. Kalia was able to seal Ifurita2 without any apparent difficulties, even though Ifurita2 indubitably possessed Yuba's techtouch. Additionally, it took Yuba his life to undo whatever Kalia did, implying that her techtouch or whatever it's called is stronger than his. If Kalia managed to link with Ifurita1, I'd say the odds favor her victory.
This ability is a dangerous and effective one, but it's rather flawed. In order to use it on Ifurita 2, she had to wait for her to let her guard down. So, against a guarded opponent, it assumes that you have to wait for them to let their guard down in order to use it. A really skilled and experienced fighter will not let their guard down for a second. It worked on Ifurita 2, most likely due to inexperience and overconfidence. Would it work the same way against Ifurita 1? Not likely, given the circumstances.
The reasons I would give for Yuba being defeated by this technique are, 1) he's human and 2) he was an old, old man. He didn't stand much of a chance against a demon god in the first place. And, with Ifurita under the effects of this virus (or whatever it was) she had no real way of helping out. In the end, Yuba gave his life to unseal Ifurita. Which, in the least, is a technique a Demon God could never utilize.
Finally, Kalia is a lunatic. She seemed to take a sadistic amount of glee in pulverizing her enemies, and I got the distinct impression that she actually enjoyed getting repeatedly whacked by the blunt end of a keystaff. Insane people can be dangerous, but insane weapons of mass destruction with possible sadist/masochist tendencies can be deadly.
Heh heh, another good point. These kind of people can indeed be dangerous. But crazy people, lacking all of their facilities, can't make accurate tactical and strategic decisions. They let their twisted desires and chemical imbalances make decisions for them, instead of reasoning. And therefore, they make self-defeating mistakes. *COUGH*hitler*COUGH*
As for Kalia's defeat in the Ancient Wars, there are simply too many unknown factors to use this to conclusively support Ifurita1 over Kalia, in my opinion. After all, Kalia might've had to take on an entire army of Demon Gods and other advanced weaponry at once since if somebody was about to destroy the entire universe I'd certainly send whatever I could to stop it. Or maybe one of her creators had a "What have I done?" moment along with a change of heart and shut both her and the Trigger of Destruction down, which would at least partially explain why she didn't seem to be the least bit damaged when Jinnai found her.
This brings up an interesting aside. You say Kalia appeared to be undamaged. Ifurita 1 also appeared to be undamaged upon awakening. This could mean two things, 1) demon gods have some sort of self-repairing function or 2) demon gods do not possess such a power, but due to their virtually untouchable nature, do not receieve any damage in battle. Human vs Demon God is one thing. But Demon God vs Demon God is another. As you'll see, when you read the manga (if you haven't already, I believe Rob has scanned and posted it here) Ifurita is capable of taking on not one, but two demon gods with different and powerful abilities. And, defeating them. It's not an easy victory of course. They were all fairly evenly matched in abilities. But, I believe Ifurita's human emotions and reasoning are what helps her win in all cases. Certainly, one would believe a cold, calculating machine unhampered by emotions would make a more efficient soldier. But there are some things that not even the most effecient computer can calculate or anticipate and respond to.
Anyway, it is my belief that Kalia is a more advanced, versatile, and overall powerful Demon God than Ifurita1, and, while it is true that Ifurita1 has more experience and likely more attacks, I believe that Kalia could weather and/or absorb and/or reflect whatever Ifurita1 throws at her until Ifurita1 runs out of power.
Here's something to think about though; you know those small, micro blackhole things Ifurita can generate? I don't believe Kalia can absorb those, since by their nature they draw things into them and pulverize them. They're aren't energy attacks like red arrow or blue thunder, they're an absense of energy. Either a black hole the size of a molecule or some type of negative energy or anti-matter. I doubt Kalia could absorb them without destroying herself.
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That is a good point also. From this then, one could infer that Kalia would not have been involved much in the ancient holy wars.
I agree with you on this. I recently skimmed through OAV1 and OAV2, and from the flashbacks I think it's safe to conclude that Kalia was put into action either right before or after the Eye of God was completed. One of the "angry, vengeful people" flashbacks even seems to show the Eye of God being being activated, so perhaps Kalia was built by survivors of the first Eye of God attack.
Since, like Ifurita 2, she seems to only possess a default set of attacks. If I recall, she does blow up a wall or two with some attack (haven't watched OVA2 in a couple years or so).
I think it's more likely that Ifurita2 merely didn't have any copied attacks currently stored in her memory banks rather than not having the "copying" ability since she is of the same Demon God series as Ifurita1. Also, most of her memories appeared to have been deleted prior to Yuba awakening her so, while she started out with a default set of attacks, I'd imagine that her powers could grow much like Ifurita1's given enough battles.
As for Kalia's default attacks, upon a second viewing of OAV2 I've changed my theory about her powers. When Kalia refires an attack, she doesn't simply absorb it and shoot it back. She seems to absorb it, process it, release it as a sphere of "her" energy, and then manipulate this sphere of energy so that it simulates whatever attack was used against her. Kalia also appears to be able to strengthen this "new" attack (like Ifurita1 does) since when she unleashed the priestesses' triple attack back at them it looked a lot more powerful. She also created energy shields and assorted laser attacks with her own energy, and Kalia somehow drained the life out of a couple of plants too.
Therefore, I think that, instead of being a "mirror", Kalia is actually an energy absorber, generator, and manipulator and, while she can't "copy" attacks like Ifurita1 does, she can probably mimic whatever energy attacks she absorbs through processing them and discerning how they work. She doesn't so much "refire" attacks as she performs her own version of them, giving her both defensive and offensive capabilities.
Assuming she does indeed use the energy she absorbs from attacks to supplement her power, that would mean she would need to be under constant attack in order to function. If the amount of energy she expends in battle is greater than the amount of energy she absorbs, she will eventually run down.
I believe you misunderstood me. What I meant to say is that Kalia probably has her own internal power source (A battery perhaps?) that supplies her with a nearly constant supply of energy, but when she places too heavy a demand on this "battery" she supplements her energy reserves with those she absorbs and then recharges.
Since Kalia was built by the enemies of the ancient tribe(s) who built Ifurita, it's unlikely that they would have access to the same technology. Unless, 1) the technology was "public domain" so to speak, and circulating before the two became enemies, 2) they managed to capture an Ifurita and study her (unlikely, imagine trying to capture Ifurita! ) or 3) they somehow captured technical documents or some scientist turned trader and revealed their secrets. Otherwise, they would have had to come up with something original.
Since the war continued after the invention of Demon Gods, the other side presumably had Demon Gods of their own or something comparable to Demon Gods. Besides, I'm willing to give any civilization that can create a weapon capable of destroying an entire dimension the benefit of the doubt when it comes to its level of technology.
Ifurita has the ability to learn the form and function of an attack and technique, right down to the molecular level.
Actually, this raises an interesting question. Just how versatile is Ifurita1's "copying" ability? It's obvious that she can duplicate any energy-based technique (i.e. Light Arrow), but what about mechanical and biological talents? If somebody has a genetic ability to regenerate limbs, could Ifurita1 mimic this? She doesn't appear to use any of the earthlings' special powers (She doesn't communicate with any Bugrom, can probably see through Phantom Tribe illusions with her own sensors, doesn't utilize Fujisawa's superstrength or hyperstrength power, and requires Makoto to be linked with her through her keystaff to turn off the Eye of God), and the dimensional teleportation technique she used to send Makoto and co. to El-Hazard looked like a big release of dimensional energy, from which one could assume that it was preordained chance that they all arrived in El-Hazard instead of some other random dimension.
For that matter, could she copy Kalia's energy absorption power which appears to be mechanical in nature? I'm inclined to say no because doing so would require more than learning how it's done; it would also entail creating the parts and systems needed to perform it.
A really skilled and experienced fighter will not let their guard down for a second
But Kalia can probably outlast Ifurita1 if it becomes a test of endurance. She can either shield or absorb whatever energy attacks Ifurita1 uses against her and, at the very least, has her own set of powerful energy attacks. At best, she could also probably reuse whatever Ifurita1 attacks her with as many times as she wants, with possibly even more power behind them if her ability to use techniques to their full potential surpasses Ifurita1's ability to use techniques to her full potential. Plus, if her battle against Ifurita2 is any indication, Kalia can absorb massive amounts of energy from a Demon God with only a few seconds of physical contact on her part. If Kalia manages to drain Ifurita1 or force her to expend too much of her own power, she'd be easy pickings for Kalia's techtouch ability.
But crazy people, lacking all of their facilities, can't make accurate tactical and strategic decisions. They let their twisted desires and chemical imbalances make decisions for them, instead of reasoning. And therefore, they make self-defeating mistakes.
Well, you've got me there since Kalia does seem a bit prone to distraction and losing her focus. If she hadn't been so intent on killing Makoto that she let down her guard enough for Ifurita2 to slip in and jab her keystaff in her back, Kalia likely would've succeeded in destroying the universe. As for the source of her Makoto fixation, perhaps she spent too much time around Jinnai? ;D Still, in a one-on-one fight, this weakness wouldn’t be as easily exploitable.
This brings up an interesting aside. You say Kalia appeared to be undamaged. Ifurita 1 also appeared to be undamaged upon awakening. This could mean two things, 1) demon gods have some sort of self-repairing function or 2) demon gods do not possess such a power, but due to their virtually untouchable nature, do not receieve any damage in battle.
While I think it is likely that Demon Gods are capable of repairing themselves to some degree, I tend to lean toward the theory that somebody on Kalia's side was the one who sealed her up and that her tomb's defenses were meant to keep the victors from capturing her. After all, why would Kalia's enemies seal her when it would make much more sense to simply destroy her, making it virtually impossible to ever reactivate the Trigger of Destruction?
As for Ifurita1, I suspect that either her own master was the one who sealed her up perhaps as part of a treaty or agreement or that one of her master's enemies got clever and devised a means to completely drain her of power and that Ifurita1 was never reactivated for whatever reasons.
But, I believe Ifurita's human emotions and reasoning are what helps her win in all cases.
Ah, but Kalia seems to have human emotions as well. She enjoyed being attacked by the three priestesses' triple attack, was annoyed by Fatora and Alliele's antics, appeared to get a rise out of teasing Jinnai (LGJ and Katsie-watsie come to mind), and is filled with the hatred and vengefulness of an entire civilization. Even her speech and mannerisms imply a high level of "humanity".
Here's something to think about though; you know those small, micro blackhole things Ifurita can generate?
Not really. I know that when she charges up her staff a dark, shadowy circle appears at the end, but I'd hardly call that a micro-blackhole. If you're referring to the Eye of God's blackhole attack, remember that it seems to draw in everything around it so Ifurita would probably be at risk too if she used this technique. Besides, I'm willing to bet that punching a hole in the fabric of the universe requires an _incredible_ amount of energy since the Eye of God is so big. Plus these blackholes looked like they were crackling with an energy of some sort or another. Still, assuming that Kalia can't absorb or collapse these blackholes, what's to prevent her from avoiding them? She has sensors of her own that could probably detect when one of them is about to open, possibly giving her enough time to "duck".
I doubt Kalia could absorb them without destroying herself.
Ah, but is that any less probable than humans gaining superpowers through dimensional travel?
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Ah, but is that any less probable than humans gaining superpowers through dimensional travel?
Dare I go on a tangent? I can't help myself. ;)
The "superpower" business is actually one you can theoretically write off... think about it. Makoto's genetic pattern is generally written to be the thing that gains access and control of machinery; this is akin IMO to an Administrative computer account. That is, someone with DNA very similiar to Makoto's was the top dog to all the techno business. But since no such genetic reader technology was available back in 1995 where Makoto starts, obviously he knew nothing special about himself.
Then Nanami's ability to see through phantom tribe illusions... last I checked there weren't any phantoms about on this world. Her power could simply have been something untapped.
And lastly, ol' Fujisawa. While super strength is difficult to explain arbitrarily, one could argue that he may have had it all along, but it was always subdued by his constant state of drunkeness. ;)
Personally, I've come to doubt that any of them actually obtained powers via dimensional traveling, but merely tapped in to inner talents and abilites they simply were unaware of...
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And lastly, ol' Fujisawa. While super strength is difficult to explain arbitrarily, one could argue that he may have had it all along, but it was always subdued by his constant state of drunkeness. ;)
One COULD argue this way, but whyever would one?
I'm MUCH more in favor of the idea that travelling to the dimension of El-Hazard grants cool powers to whoever does so. To me, it GREATLY enhances the romantic and fantastic aspects of the show - the very things that draw me to it in the first place. When envisioning myself travelling to El-Hazard (and who among us hasn't, at least once? Isn't that the point of escapist fantasy?), it's much more fun to imagine that I might arrive there with some kind of way-cool special power.
This does not require the abilities to be "magical" or anything hokey like that - perhaps the Eye of God (or Ifurita, presuming that she wasn't remote-controlling the Eye when she sent the travellers to El-Hazard) deliberately bestows special abilities on the people who pass through its gates. Or, perhaps dimensional travel in general triggers previously dormant segments of DNA in unpredictable ways.
That they are just ordinary humans who happened to "fit" just right IS another explanation, but to me it hardly seems a savory one. And the Fujisawa explanation seems to fall particularly flat. :P
And, to keep this from being totally off-topic, I think that the Kalia vs. Ifurita debate can be argued either way. We just don't know enough about Kalia OR Ifurita to be sure. And, in fact, people have already made up plenty of stuff about both to defend their arguments. Mini-black-holes? ^^; Maybe they sorta look like them, but they were certainly never CALLED that. And even if they were, it's pure speculation to assume that Kalia wouldn't be able to absorb one anyway. Who knows WHAT she can absorb?
Personally, I think that Makoto's Ifurita (Ifurita I) would be able to kick Kalia's butt up and down the block. Ifurita II simply never displayed the first Ifurita's level of kickassedness. That doesn't necessarily prove that she doesn't HAVE that level, but I can only go by what I saw. As for Kalia being a later model, that's possible, but it doesn't necessarily imply that she's better. It's not as though she was built specifically to combat Demon Gods - she was built to activate the Trigger of Destruction. Or, at least, that was her entire focus from the moment she was activated.
As for Kalia vs. TV Ifurita... Hrm... ^^; I think TV Ifurita would win if it was important to the plot that she do so. Otherwise, it could go either way. And whatever happened, Jinnai would get blasted/blown up/fried/whatever as well.
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And, to keep this from being totally off-topic, I think that the Kalia vs. Ifurita debate can be argued either way. We just don't know enough about Kalia OR Ifurita to be sure. And, in fact, people have already made up plenty of stuff about both to defend their arguments.
Whatever we argue, things of this nature are always going to be interpreted and reinterpreted a thousand ways, none of which are "right". :P
One COULD argue this way, but whyever would one?
I'm MUCH more in favor of the idea that travelling to the dimension of El-Hazard grants cool powers to whoever does so. To me, it GREATLY enhances the romantic and fantastic aspects of the show - the very things that draw me to it in the first place. When envisioning myself travelling to El-Hazard (and who among us hasn't, at least once? Isn't that the point of escapist fantasy?), it's much more fun to imagine that I might arrive there with some kind of way-cool special power.
This does not require the abilities to be "magical" or anything hokey like that - perhaps the Eye of God (or Ifurita, presuming that she wasn't remote-controlling the Eye when she sent the travellers to El-Hazard) deliberately bestows special abilities on the people who pass through its gates. Or, perhaps dimensional travel in general triggers previously dormant segments of DNA in unpredictable ways.
"the Eye of God ... deliberately bestows special abilities" isn't hokey? ;) I've always seen the Eye as merely a large interdimensional warpgate device, not unlike what we might envision on a futuristic starship (and one could theorize this is EXACTLY where the technology would've originated from in the obviously advanced El-Hazard world of the past.) All it does is pick up clumps of matter and drop it off somewhere. It doesn't take lifeforms and reconfigure them randomly for its own amusement.
I think really the "powers" were more plot elements, to show how every person who was no one special on Earth suddenly find their "true" selves and reach new peaks and other preachy crap. :P Yes, perhaps there's that romanticism of thinking everyone who goes to El-Hazard gets powers and all that... but I personally will never be satisfied until I get a more in-depth scientific cover-up.
That they are just ordinary humans who happened to "fit" just right IS another explanation, but to me it hardly seems a savory one. And the Fujisawa explanation seems to fall particularly flat. :P
Exactly, on its own, the Fujisawa one is very hard to fathom. But I'm going to just pull some sci-fi out my ass for the fun of it... hmmm... okay, for example, the radio drama suggests that the atmosphere is artifically generated because something during the great war ruined it forever. One could suggest that perhaps Fujisawa has a particular muscular makeup in his body that reacts unusually with something imperfect in the air and makes them more tight and responsive or something... and alcohol in the bloodstream neutralizes the chemical reaction. This could also suggest that there are other people in El-Hazard -- perhaps only a few if it's a rare condition -- that are also super-human in strength. That's more the type of thing that will satisfy me. ;)
Personally, I sometimes think it'd be great to be whisked away to a world where all my problems and issues in the current one would cease to matter and I'd wind up a hero... but I don't think I honestly ever really desired new secret powers to do with.
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Seeing all the discussion w.r.t. Kalia's powers and dementia, I thought I might commend to your review one possible explanation of how she ended up that way. See the story called "Prime Candidate" at Ken Wolfe's page:
http://www.mts.net/~kenwolfe/fanfic.html
The same author, in his "Earth" and "Reunited" story arcs, has provided some of Ifurita's background as well. I'm not sure which one of them I would consider more messed up, though in Ifurita's case, her path turned away from destruction.
--me
Mark Engels
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And, in fact, people have already made up plenty of stuff about both to defend their arguments. Mini-black-holes? ^^; Maybe they sorta look like them, but they were certainly never CALLED that.
I don't appreciate that comment. Neither rowan_a_seven nor myself have "made up plenty of stuff" to defend our arguments. We're just calling it like we see it.
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I don't appreciate that comment. Neither rowan_a_seven nor myself have "made up plenty of stuff" to defend our arguments. We're just calling it like we see it.
But... because it's fiction, and your applying further fiction to nurture fiction, doesn't that really amount to "making up plenty of stuff"?
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But... because it's fiction, and your applying further fiction to nurture fiction, doesn't that really amount to "making up plenty of stuff"?
No. Not unless you interpret interpretation as "making stuff up." We're not adding anything to it that doesn't already appear in the series. The little black holes... you'll recall that they have crackling energy around them just like the ones that come out of the Eye of God. And, when Iffy fires one at Makoto, it conveniently and neatly removes a chunk of matter from the floor before winking out of existence. So, what is it then if not a micro blackhole? Anti-matter? That would mean the ones that come out of the Eye of God are the same animal. Probable I suppose. Either way, they're the same type of weapon.
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In OAV1, a number of characters mentioned a few times that Ifurita is the strongest demon goddess. Isn't that right?
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In OAV1, a number of characters mentioned a few times that Ifurita is the strongest demon goddess. Isn't that right?
Yes, but they also seemed to think that she was the _only_ Ifurita class Demon God, a belief that was disproven in OAV2, and if they were wrong about that they could also be wrong about Ifurita being the most powerful Demon God. As for fiction being part of the arguments, I think both Saucer and myself made it clear when we were talking about what was actually shown in the series and our own conclusions and ideas. Still, it seems that we'll have to agree to disagree since there doesn't appear to be any irrefragable proof one way or another and, to be perfectly honest, somebody could probably argue that TV Ifurita could take them both down if one wanted to. ;D
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Actually, Ifurita herself claimed that she was the most powerful Demon God. It is unlikely that she was bragging or fibbing, given her character, so it's likely that she honestly believed it.
Of course, we know that she did not last throughout the entire war, given that the Eye was still unfinished when she was put to sleep. So, it's technically possible that a stronger Demon God was created after she was put to sleep (Kalia could fit the bill).
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I'll have to note the one thing that bothers me the most about this discussion is this nagging voice in my head that was put there by Neil consistently reminding me that anything besides OAV1 is not really Hayashi's writing and therefore the conflicts presented themselves because other people are silly.
... not that I'm going to enforce that or anything. But, of course, in truth, Ifurita WAS supposed to be "THE" weapon. All this multiple Ifurita and other demon gods and "more powerful than the Eye of God" business wasn't Hayashi's doing. :P
But yeah, in a temporal sense, Ifurita could've been "THE" weapon, and then lost this status while she was in slumber. Poor girl.
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Guys!!
Just Admit it... Kalia's more powerful indeed! :bawl
Can't you see guys?! ???
Even Jinnai's ifu or Yuba's and Makoto's can't even match her.... That demon god is more intelligent..
Kalia is of the latest design and technology than Ifurita.. And kalia is more DEADLY even though the whole El Hazard labelled Ifurita the Strongest of all demon god!!
What shall I do?? :bawl :bawl Im a die-hard Ifurita fan!! nyaaahhhh! :|:-[ :-X :-/:'( :bawl
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I accept that Kalia is more superior.
ifurita can only say shes the strongest demon lord but she is not.... she's programmed to believe that..
But... IM STILL an IFURITA =,] -_-die-hard fan!!! =,]
I love ifurita very much!!
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Easy there. ^^;
On the plus side, even if Kalia can beat Ifurita (note that she never actually fought Makoto's Ifurita, so there's still hope there), remember that Kalia really is nothing but a hyperactive and very evil little gal. Ifurita has more character than she ever will.
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:bawl :-[ |D
Hehehe...
Its just really difficult to say which of the two is really stronger but... I think Kalia hits more points than Ifurita when it comes to speed and power.
But Kalia recognized Ifurita as the Strongest but unlike her, Ifurita is not perfect..
:o